Very odd

MFC · 02-19-2007, 02:19 AM

Try to explain this one:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=66267338
If it is all original , it might be the last dished toggle luger made. Very cool or very fake.???
Mike C.

Dwight Gruber · 02-19-2007, 03:35 AM

Mike,

In 1902 the German Army conducted a test of 55 Luger pistols, along with a number of other self-loading pistols. The reported examples of these guns fall in a series intermingled with Dutch Test Lugers in the 1902 range between sn 22219 and sn 22393 (there are also some American Eagle and Commercial pistols in this range).

The Cartridge Counter guns follow almost immediately with sn 22400, and the 1902 series (dished toggles) continues with several variations until the 1903 (French) Commercial at sn 25000, the first Luger with flat toggles.

The pistol on Gunbroker, sn 22254, falls within the German Test range.

The German Test Lugers are stamped with a crown-over-D on the left receiver and rear frame (Still, Imperial Lugers p.17). These are commonly, and erroneously, called "Danzig Armory" proofs. There was no connection to the "Danzig Armory" with either the mark or the tests, the stamp is a normal c/Letter army inspector's stamp.

This gun has been refinished. It has characteristics which suggest that it may be a real German test pistol, but it would require serious hands-on examination with a knowledgable eye to be sure.

--Dwight

c3006 · 02-19-2007, 07:15 AM

Dwight
I wondered about the refinish,what did you see to tell you it had been refinished for sure? thanks clint

Pete Ebbink · 02-19-2007, 11:51 AM

Look at the polished safety area...probably re-blued many, many, years ago given the wear and patina present.

If as Dwight says this is a German test piece, having it sport a very old reblue may not discourage collectors from going after it...as sometimes "rare" trumps "original finish" when desiring a piece.

MFC · 02-19-2007, 11:26 PM

Dwight,
I looked at your comm. data base to check where the S# fell which prompted me to start this thread. I noticed that there were some 1905 Dutch trials before this #22254 so I assumed it was made no earlier than 1905. Please explain.
I'm still learning.
Thanks,
Mike C.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-20-2007, 01:08 AM

Dwight, Pete, I have to vote that this pistol might not be a re-blue. The safety area is simply patined in my opinion. I have an all original 1900 in my lap and the safety area patina is exactly the same. The pistol has no other indications of reblue. If you look at the indent hole it is bright in the white. The Dutch did refinnish pistols. The Europeans thought nothing of refinnishing. They were just tools after all. Especially in the Dutch East Indies where the weather could be brutal on pistol finishes. Jerry Burney

waltherguy · 02-20-2007, 01:16 AM

I'm glad you mentioned it Jerry... by NO means am I even close to an expert. But I was wondering what was the dead give-a-way that this gun was a re-finish... ?

tudorbug · 02-20-2007, 09:12 AM

He has interesting Lugers offered, including a 1900 AE. He is certainly not at all shy about posting photos that depict every aspect of each and I would compliment him for that effort.

David

Dwight Gruber · 02-20-2007, 02:49 PM

Mike,

Your question is a good one. On one hand the answer is pretty straightforward, but as I have pondered it and done some book research I have come to realize that the 1902 model Luger is generally misunderstood.

The short answer to your question is, that the Dutch 1905 trials guns were actually ordered and delivered in 1904. The serial numbers suggest that both these guns and the 1904 German test Lugers were drawn from production at random, and there is no conflict about production dates.

I am still formulating a longer answer, about which these Lugers are only a part.

As collectors we sometimes throw dates around pretty casually. Many of our variation designations are based on ancillary information or ex post facto observations which obscure or ignore more pertinent facts about the guns themselves (sometimes the facts are, indeed, unknown), and which lead to erroneous conclusions. The dates by which we name these guns sometimes have little relationship to when they were actually made; the "1905 Dutch Test" designation is a good example.

--Dwight

MFC · 02-20-2007, 05:05 PM

Dwight,
If I understand correctly, the trial guns were made in or before 1902 and ordered and delivered in 1904. Didn't they stop using the toggle lock sometime in 1902?
Thanks again,
Mike C.

LugerVern · 02-20-2007, 08:45 PM

My budget requires me to buy on the lower end of things, but I have learned to look for consistency in the finish. Pictures can fool everyone, but did you notice that the front of the lower frame is a little scratched but the barrel in that area shows a clean surface. The 2Ã¢??s and 5 are different also. Albert taught me to look closely at the strawing, I donÃ¢??t see the little lines that should be there, could be washout from the camera flash but those arenÃ¢??t bad pictures.
The marks on the side of the barrel are typical of a barrel wrench that slipped slightly during installation.

Just the ramblings of a beginner, but purchase with your eyes wide open!

Vern

Dwight Gruber · 02-21-2007, 12:48 PM

Mike,

I'm curious to know your information source?

The toggle lock, as one detail of the "Old Model" toggle system, remained a feature of the Parabellum through the 1904 Navy and "1903 (French) Commercial" transitional models.

I know of no evidence that the "1902" (short, Type 2 frame) Parabellums were made before 1902. Walter, The Luger Story, suggests they were not made until sometime after that year, an opinion I am coming to share.

--Dwight

MFC · 02-21-2007, 11:23 PM

Dwight,
On page 33 of Luger Tips, Revised edition Michael Reese states that the visible toggle locking device was on 1900, 1902 models only. Obviously he was wrong.
I'll let the more knowledgeable hash this out. I certainly don't know enough about it , but I'm still trying to learn.
Thanks,
MikeC.

02-19-2007, 02:19 AM	#1
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Very odd Try to explain this one: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=66267338 If it is all original , it might be the last dished toggle luger made. Very cool or very fake.??? Mike C.

02-19-2007, 07:15 AM	#3
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	Dwight I wondered about the refinish,what did you see to tell you it had been refinished for sure? thanks clint __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

02-19-2007, 11:26 PM	#5
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Dwight, I looked at your comm. data base to check where the S# fell which prompted me to start this thread. I noticed that there were some 1905 Dutch trials before this #22254 so I assumed it was made no earlier than 1905. Please explain. I'm still learning. Thanks, Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

02-20-2007, 01:08 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,104 Times in 1,429 Posts	Dwight, Pete, I have to vote that this pistol might not be a re-blue. The safety area is simply patined in my opinion. I have an all original 1900 in my lap and the safety area patina is exactly the same. The pistol has no other indications of reblue. If you look at the indent hole it is bright in the white. The Dutch did refinnish pistols. The Europeans thought nothing of refinnishing. They were just tools after all. Especially in the Dutch East Indies where the weather could be brutal on pistol finishes. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-20-2007, 01:16 AM	#7
waltherguy User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: FL Posts: 201 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm glad you mentioned it Jerry... by NO means am I even close to an expert. But I was wondering what was the dead give-a-way that this gun was a re-finish... ? __________________ "In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine" -Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

02-19-2007, 03:35 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Mike, In 1902 the German Army conducted a test of 55 Luger pistols, along with a number of other self-loading pistols. The reported examples of these guns fall in a series intermingled with Dutch Test Lugers in the 1902 range between sn 22219 and sn 22393 (there are also some American Eagle and Commercial pistols in this range). The Cartridge Counter guns follow almost immediately with sn 22400, and the 1902 series (dished toggles) continues with several variations until the 1903 (French) Commercial at sn 25000, the first Luger with flat toggles. The pistol on Gunbroker, sn 22254, falls within the German Test range. The German Test Lugers are stamped with a crown-over-D on the left receiver and rear frame (Still, Imperial Lugers p.17). These are commonly, and erroneously, called "Danzig Armory" proofs. There was no connection to the "Danzig Armory" with either the mark or the tests, the stamp is a normal c/Letter army inspector's stamp. This gun has been refinished. It has characteristics which suggest that it may be a real German test pistol, but it would require serious hands-on examination with a knowledgable eye to be sure. --Dwight

02-19-2007, 11:51 AM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Look at the polished safety area...probably re-blued many, many, years ago given the wear and patina present. If as Dwight says this is a German test piece, having it sport a very old reblue may not discourage collectors from going after it...as sometimes "rare" trumps "original finish" when desiring a piece.

02-20-2007, 09:12 AM	#8
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	He has interesting Lugers offered, including a 1900 AE. He is certainly not at all shy about posting photos that depict every aspect of each and I would compliment him for that effort. David

02-20-2007, 02:49 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Mike, Your question is a good one. On one hand the answer is pretty straightforward, but as I have pondered it and done some book research I have come to realize that the 1902 model Luger is generally misunderstood. The short answer to your question is, that the Dutch 1905 trials guns were actually ordered and delivered in 1904. The serial numbers suggest that both these guns and the 1904 German test Lugers were drawn from production at random, and there is no conflict about production dates. I am still formulating a longer answer, about which these Lugers are only a part. As collectors we sometimes throw dates around pretty casually. Many of our variation designations are based on ancillary information or ex post facto observations which obscure or ignore more pertinent facts about the guns themselves (sometimes the facts are, indeed, unknown), and which lead to erroneous conclusions. The dates by which we name these guns sometimes have little relationship to when they were actually made; the "1905 Dutch Test" designation is a good example. --Dwight

02-20-2007, 05:05 PM	#10
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Dwight, If I understand correctly, the trial guns were made in or before 1902 and ordered and delivered in 1904. Didn't they stop using the toggle lock sometime in 1902? Thanks again, Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

02-20-2007, 08:45 PM	#11
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	My budget requires me to buy on the lower end of things, but I have learned to look for consistency in the finish. Pictures can fool everyone, but did you notice that the front of the lower frame is a little scratched but the barrel in that area shows a clean surface. The 2Ã¢??s and 5 are different also. Albert taught me to look closely at the strawing, I donÃ¢??t see the little lines that should be there, could be washout from the camera flash but those arenÃ¢??t bad pictures. The marks on the side of the barrel are typical of a barrel wrench that slipped slightly during installation. Just the ramblings of a beginner, but purchase with your eyes wide open! Vern

02-21-2007, 12:48 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Mike, I'm curious to know your information source? The toggle lock, as one detail of the "Old Model" toggle system, remained a feature of the Parabellum through the 1904 Navy and "1903 (French) Commercial" transitional models. I know of no evidence that the "1902" (short, Type 2 frame) Parabellums were made before 1902. Walter, The Luger Story, suggests they were not made until sometime after that year, an opinion I am coming to share. --Dwight

02-21-2007, 11:23 PM	#13
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Dwight, On page 33 of Luger Tips, Revised edition Michael Reese states that the visible toggle locking device was on 1900, 1902 models only. Obviously he was wrong. I'll let the more knowledgeable hash this out. I certainly don't know enough about it , but I'm still trying to learn. Thanks, MikeC. __________________ Mike C.