New 2 Forum, Luger Identification help needed please

JonnyBlue · 12-02-2006, 08:02 AM

Hello

My nameis Jon I am from Wilmington DE
I am always on gunforums.com if any of you are there u may know me.

I am new to the forum, and new to the "gun world" in general.
Since i've started getting involved I try to go every weekend bringing new friends down to the range to either shoot handguns, or do some skeet/trap shooting.

I own a few guns, the only one I guess that is important at the moment Is a German Luger my grandfather brought back from WWII.

He brought it back with several different Knives, giant flags/banners, arm bands etc...

The luger itself (will upload pictures)

I'm trying to find what year it was produced, because I find it amazing that
a pistol as old as this shoots as well as it does at the range.
Its probably my favorite gun to shoot, for a few reasons, one being it has history behind it, second being its one of the few things I have to remember my grandfather by.

Listed below are all of the markings I found on the gun the following identifying markings
The serial number under the barrell is 4996 (with what looks like a cursive A under it)

On the rear of the gun is 96 (last 2 digits of serial) as is the 96 on several
parts when I broke down the gun.

So I know matching serial numbers is an important part

On the top of the toggle is DWM

There is also a TCS marking (in funny letters) right above the lever you pull
down to take apart the gun.

Then on the underside of the grip where clip goes in, on the metal part underneath
there is 25.R.5.4.

I'm going to try to get pictures of these markings but its hard because the
auto flash I cannot turn off on my camera and reflects on the metal making
it hard to see..

You'll notice in the pic, again someone told me this, that it looked like my grandpop painted the grip when he brought it back, I was told to eithe 1)leave it like that 2) try to strip the paint 3) buy a new grip

I don't plan on selling it, so i'll take suggestions on that as well, i'd like to buy a new grip for it

JonnyBlue · 12-02-2006, 08:03 AM

another pic

JonnyBlue · 12-02-2006, 08:04 AM

DWM Toggle stamp

JonnyBlue · 12-02-2006, 08:05 AM

Under grip stamp
All other are even more blurry, the serial number is especially hard to get

JonnyBlue · 12-02-2006, 08:06 AM

here is the whole collection

SteveM · 12-02-2006, 08:23 AM

Jon,

From the pics and description it looks like you have a 1908 1st issue. If I were you, I would not shoot this pistol if all the numbers match. Break one numbered part and you'll cut the value down to shooter status. Production of this model is in the approximate 25k range. I believe the gripstrap markings denote the 25th infantry regiment, 5th company, weapon number 4. The magazine is incorrect for this period, it is for a WW2 era pistol. Of course if I am wrong on any of this info, someone will come along and correct me.

Edward Tinker · 12-02-2006, 10:40 AM

Jon, welcome to the forum! Closer pictures would help.

You can either take it outside into (not direct sunlight) and take some more pictures
Use the flash from further away but highest quality of the pixels and then crop down (see how further items are in-focus) and close items are out of focus.
Ensure you are using the "macro" feature. this will look like a "flower", and you press it and it will help. #1 thing is plenty of natural light to take good pictures.

Stripping the grips and refinishing is one of the FEW things that you could do that would not be considered really bad to most collectors.

As Steve says, if it is all matching you run the risk of damaging it. You could buy a shotoer and "maybe" shoot this one infrequnetly.

I have no clue on the TCS marking, that is a new one to me, would need to see pictures.

The DWM is the manufactuer, the orginal manufacturer of lugers. With further info and pictues, we can help you more.

Welcome to the forum!

I am far from an expert but the bayonet on the far right appears to be a police model, one carried prior to WW2 and during. They are worth $500-$700 by themself, I have two of them (I collect Weimar era items).

Things like this are a great rememberance of your grandfather and am glad you have them, take good care of them

ed

c3006 · 12-02-2006, 02:08 PM

Send the grips to hugh and let his dillos worry with em. Nice colletion of bringback stuff. clint

Dwight Gruber · 12-02-2006, 03:19 PM

I sent a set of painted grips to Hugh for cleaning and they came back as some of the nicer grips I have seen. I suppose I could have done it myself, but as I didn't want to chance screwing them up I simply sent them off.

Are they numbered (on the inside) 96, the same as the rest of the gun?

SteveM's identification of your Luger appears to be right on. From the photos it looks like you have a terrific, collection-worthy gun and removing the paint from the grips will make a lot of difference.

When you remove the grips please be very careful. There is a fragile area which commonly breaks off if they are removed carelessly, and since they are painted it is possible that they are 'stuck' to the frame a bit. I suggest the following procedure:

1. Remove the magazine.

2. Remove the right grip screw (use a broad-bladed screwdriver which fits the slot exactly, or modify one until it does fit).

3. Put your finger into the magazine well and gently press outward on the lower part of the right-side grip. Use no more pressure than necessary to actually remove it (it may 'pop' loose).

4. Remove the left grip screw and again press the grip away from the frame from the inside. Note, that the grip must not be simply pushed off. The small part of the left grip below and behind the thumb safety lever is a weak point, and this is the part that often breaks away. As the lower part of the grip clears the raised portion of the bottom of the frame, gently rotate the bottom of the grip forward slightly as you lift it. This will pull the top right corner of the grip away from the safety lever, rather than pry against it.

If by some chance you do break this part off, send it along with the grips to Hugh and he can repair it.

--Dwight

JonnyBlue · 12-04-2006, 05:22 PM

Wow thanks for the replys!

Actually I looked at the "T C S" and it looks like

A guy dancing (like a T)
Then maybe a U with a crown
and a backwards E

It looks like TCS from a distance

Up close, like ancient egyptian wrtiting

lol

I may take your advice and buy one just to shoot, because I do LOVE shooting this gun, so I figure I'd love shooting a "cheaper" model just as much

I have an extra clip for the gun too, as well as some time period correct 9mm ammo (at least it looks REALLY old (the ammo))

What would you say, if the grips were perfect shape, would this be worth?
Just for sheer curiosity

I wouldn't want to sell my pop pops gun

Anyways thanks again!!
-Jon

JonnyBlue · 12-04-2006, 05:33 PM

I just told my dad this was made in 1908 BEFORE WWI

Very interested to get all that info

I'll try to get outside this weekend (when i get off work its dark)
and get some pics of those other markings

I took it to the guys at the gun shop before with him, to the "experts" who said it wasn't a gun used in WWII, which is funny because my grandfather got it from WWII.
Anyway they kept trying to talk down the gun

Now I find out its OLDER than I thought, which is AWESOME!

Ron Wood · 12-04-2006, 06:53 PM

Your "TCS" marking is actually one of the sets of proofs found on the left receiver of the 1908 First Issue Military Luger (as correctly identified by SteveM). Reading from left to right, the "guy dancing" is an eagle, the "maybe a U with a crown" is a German Fraktur alphabet character and is probably a "T", and the last character is a Fraktur "Z".

To the guys that are trying to talk down the gun, tell them to walk west until their hat floats. They do not realize what a nice specimen this is.

JonnyBlue · 12-05-2006, 08:12 AM

What makes this a "nice specemin" ?

Is it the matching serial numbers?
The year it was made?

Or a combination of different things...

You don't know how glad I am to hear from someone, or be validated that it IS indeed "the real deal" so to speak, when it comes to lugers..

Another thing you might find funny ,,,
The "Expert gun store guys" also laughed and said ...
"this is in too good a shape to have been used in a war!"

It came back from WWII and was placed in a chest for 50 years, how much damage could have been done?

It has not been refinished, I have seen ones that have been and they look brand new, or they have funny looks to them so you can tell they were redone...

Not to mention, it was taken off a soldier...

What i was trying to tell the guys at the store, (but I'm a kid (26) what do I know...
Is that during the war they (soldiers) would sometimes use any gun they had right?

In other words if its their personal gun, or "leftover" they would still carry it as a "backup"

Bottom line being, it was used in a war was my point...

I guess they were arguing it wasn't military issued, which Is correct because it was produced by DWM ...correct? this is just going off the little I've read from these posts

Thanks again

Edward Tinker · 12-05-2006, 11:15 AM

This is a fine line of how original something is. I have seen lugers and other guns used in war that looked brand new, while I have seen others very beat up. It depends on how the gun was stored, both during and especially after the war.

In the US Army I was told and sincerlly believe, more guns are worn out by over cleaning than shooting them.

A friend of mine bought an artillery luger (originally made for WW1 and believed to have come back then), it sat in the basement in a trunk for 50-60 years, it is in really nice shape, but very "dried" out. I have also seen examples that were in a attic, hot as heck all summer, cold in the winter and the finnish on them was horrible, all dried wood, holster and the metal gets weird, ruins the finnish.
Being stored for 50 years in a holster can ruin a gun, as the holster can hold mositure, yet I have seen lugers kept in a holster since after the war that look pristine. I am sure it depends on the weather in your area (hot and dry or moist and wet), where stored, how stored, how put away (freshly oiled and then put away, or blood or slightly damp when put away.

It all depends.

AND, it depends on where it came from. Sometimes we hear of a luger that the owner swears came off of a soldier nickled (this was common after the war to have them nickled or chromed, by the US GI), this never happened, but the GI or family will insist on it. It simply did not come that way from a German soldier.

Or they insist it came from WW2, is a bring back, yet it has much newer import marking. Yes, the GI may have had one in WW2, but maybe he sold it and bought a new one. The family wants to beleive it is a WW2 bring back, and sometimes it simply isn't.

After 50-60 years, stories get switched, changed and not remembered right, or embellished...

Ed

Ron Wood · 12-05-2006, 11:35 AM

Jon

DWM was the initial producer of Lugers and made ALL of the military Lugers until 1910-1911 when the Erfurt Arsenal started manufacturing them as well.

As far as a WWI Luger being captured in WWII, I own a 1912 DWM military Luger that I got from one of my best friends. His father captured it in WWII near Bastogne. It is marked to a unit from WWI, so it saw service in two wars and is still in excellent original condition. Obviously the German soldier that had it took very good care of it, and probably had been cared for by his family members since it first saw service.

Your "Expert gun store guys" need to keep walking toward the sunset.

JonnyBlue · 12-06-2006, 08:21 AM

So your saying the luger I have wasn't brought back from the WWII?

Edward Tinker · 12-06-2006, 10:16 AM

who said that???

He said it was a WW1 item and his father captured it from WW2. This is very common.

My comment was that you have to take everything with a grain of salt. Number 1 rule, buy the gun, not the story, because I have seen guns said as captured and weren't. Please read the entire posting and see what I meant...

Ed

JonnyBlue · 12-06-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonnyBlue
So your saying the luger I have wasn't brought back from the WWII?

I wasn't yelling or saying it angry, I was just asking..

I guess I read the post wrong

Towards the bottom when he was talking about how ...old stories of what happened during the war end up different as time goes on...etc...

I thought that was talking about me

my bad

-jon

Edward Tinker · 12-06-2006, 12:05 PM

Jon, I did not take it bad either

sorry if I sounded that way

Sometimes I write and try to throw in some extra tidbits, which can sound confusing. I have been impressed with your ability to get to the bottom, this makes the hunt and research fun!

Ed

12-02-2006, 08:03 AM	#2
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	another pic Attached Images

12-02-2006, 08:04 AM	#3
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	DWM Toggle stamp Attached Images

12-02-2006, 08:05 AM	#4
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Under grip stamp All other are even more blurry, the serial number is especially hard to get Attached Thumbnails

12-02-2006, 08:06 AM	#5
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	here is the whole collection Attached Thumbnails

12-02-2006, 02:08 PM	#8
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	Send the grips to hugh and let his dillos worry with em. Nice colletion of bringback stuff. clint __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

12-02-2006, 08:02 AM	#1
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New 2 Forum, Luger Identification help needed please Hello My nameis Jon I am from Wilmington DE I am always on gunforums.com if any of you are there u may know me. I am new to the forum, and new to the "gun world" in general. Since i've started getting involved I try to go every weekend bringing new friends down to the range to either shoot handguns, or do some skeet/trap shooting. I own a few guns, the only one I guess that is important at the moment Is a German Luger my grandfather brought back from WWII. He brought it back with several different Knives, giant flags/banners, arm bands etc... The luger itself (will upload pictures) I'm trying to find what year it was produced, because I find it amazing that a pistol as old as this shoots as well as it does at the range. Its probably my favorite gun to shoot, for a few reasons, one being it has history behind it, second being its one of the few things I have to remember my grandfather by. Listed below are all of the markings I found on the gun the following identifying markings The serial number under the barrell is 4996 (with what looks like a cursive A under it) On the rear of the gun is 96 (last 2 digits of serial) as is the 96 on several parts when I broke down the gun. So I know matching serial numbers is an important part On the top of the toggle is DWM There is also a TCS marking (in funny letters) right above the lever you pull down to take apart the gun. Then on the underside of the grip where clip goes in, on the metal part underneath there is 25.R.5.4. I'm going to try to get pictures of these markings but its hard because the auto flash I cannot turn off on my camera and reflects on the metal making it hard to see.. You'll notice in the pic, again someone told me this, that it looked like my grandpop painted the grip when he brought it back, I was told to eithe 1)leave it like that 2) try to strip the paint 3) buy a new grip I don't plan on selling it, so i'll take suggestions on that as well, i'd like to buy a new grip for it Attached Thumbnails

12-02-2006, 08:23 AM	#6
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Jon, From the pics and description it looks like you have a 1908 1st issue. If I were you, I would not shoot this pistol if all the numbers match. Break one numbered part and you'll cut the value down to shooter status. Production of this model is in the approximate 25k range. I believe the gripstrap markings denote the 25th infantry regiment, 5th company, weapon number 4. The magazine is incorrect for this period, it is for a WW2 era pistol. Of course if I am wrong on any of this info, someone will come along and correct me.

12-02-2006, 10:40 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Jon, welcome to the forum! Closer pictures would help. You can either take it outside into (not direct sunlight) and take some more pictures Use the flash from further away but highest quality of the pixels and then crop down (see how further items are in-focus) and close items are out of focus. Ensure you are using the "macro" feature. this will look like a "flower", and you press it and it will help. #1 thing is plenty of natural light to take good pictures. Stripping the grips and refinishing is one of the FEW things that you could do that would not be considered really bad to most collectors. As Steve says, if it is all matching you run the risk of damaging it. You could buy a shotoer and "maybe" shoot this one infrequnetly. I have no clue on the TCS marking, that is a new one to me, would need to see pictures. The DWM is the manufactuer, the orginal manufacturer of lugers. With further info and pictues, we can help you more. Welcome to the forum! I am far from an expert but the bayonet on the far right appears to be a police model, one carried prior to WW2 and during. They are worth $500-$700 by themself, I have two of them (I collect Weimar era items). Things like this are a great rememberance of your grandfather and am glad you have them, take good care of them ed

12-02-2006, 03:19 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	I sent a set of painted grips to Hugh for cleaning and they came back as some of the nicer grips I have seen. I suppose I could have done it myself, but as I didn't want to chance screwing them up I simply sent them off. Are they numbered (on the inside) 96, the same as the rest of the gun? SteveM's identification of your Luger appears to be right on. From the photos it looks like you have a terrific, collection-worthy gun and removing the paint from the grips will make a lot of difference. When you remove the grips please be very careful. There is a fragile area which commonly breaks off if they are removed carelessly, and since they are painted it is possible that they are 'stuck' to the frame a bit. I suggest the following procedure: 1. Remove the magazine. 2. Remove the right grip screw (use a broad-bladed screwdriver which fits the slot exactly, or modify one until it does fit). 3. Put your finger into the magazine well and gently press outward on the lower part of the right-side grip. Use no more pressure than necessary to actually remove it (it may 'pop' loose). 4. Remove the left grip screw and again press the grip away from the frame from the inside. Note, that the grip must not be simply pushed off. The small part of the left grip below and behind the thumb safety lever is a weak point, and this is the part that often breaks away. As the lower part of the grip clears the raised portion of the bottom of the frame, gently rotate the bottom of the grip forward slightly as you lift it. This will pull the top right corner of the grip away from the safety lever, rather than pry against it. If by some chance you do break this part off, send it along with the grips to Hugh and he can repair it. --Dwight

12-04-2006, 05:22 PM	#10
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow thanks for the replys! Actually I looked at the "T C S" and it looks like A guy dancing (like a T) Then maybe a U with a crown and a backwards E It looks like TCS from a distance Up close, like ancient egyptian wrtiting lol I may take your advice and buy one just to shoot, because I do LOVE shooting this gun, so I figure I'd love shooting a "cheaper" model just as much I have an extra clip for the gun too, as well as some time period correct 9mm ammo (at least it looks REALLY old (the ammo)) What would you say, if the grips were perfect shape, would this be worth? Just for sheer curiosity I wouldn't want to sell my pop pops gun Anyways thanks again!! -Jon

12-04-2006, 05:33 PM	#11
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just told my dad this was made in 1908 BEFORE WWI Very interested to get all that info I'll try to get outside this weekend (when i get off work its dark) and get some pics of those other markings I took it to the guys at the gun shop before with him, to the "experts" who said it wasn't a gun used in WWII, which is funny because my grandfather got it from WWII. Anyway they kept trying to talk down the gun Now I find out its OLDER than I thought, which is AWESOME!

12-04-2006, 06:53 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Your "TCS" marking is actually one of the sets of proofs found on the left receiver of the 1908 First Issue Military Luger (as correctly identified by SteveM). Reading from left to right, the "guy dancing" is an eagle, the "maybe a U with a crown" is a German Fraktur alphabet character and is probably a "T", and the last character is a Fraktur "Z". To the guys that are trying to talk down the gun, tell them to walk west until their hat floats. They do not realize what a nice specimen this is. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-05-2006, 08:12 AM	#13
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What makes this a "nice specemin" ? Is it the matching serial numbers? The year it was made? Or a combination of different things... You don't know how glad I am to hear from someone, or be validated that it IS indeed "the real deal" so to speak, when it comes to lugers.. Another thing you might find funny ,,, The "Expert gun store guys" also laughed and said ... "this is in too good a shape to have been used in a war!" It came back from WWII and was placed in a chest for 50 years, how much damage could have been done? It has not been refinished, I have seen ones that have been and they look brand new, or they have funny looks to them so you can tell they were redone... Not to mention, it was taken off a soldier... What i was trying to tell the guys at the store, (but I'm a kid (26) what do I know... Is that during the war they (soldiers) would sometimes use any gun they had right? In other words if its their personal gun, or "leftover" they would still carry it as a "backup" Bottom line being, it was used in a war was my point... I guess they were arguing it wasn't military issued, which Is correct because it was produced by DWM ...correct? this is just going off the little I've read from these posts Thanks again

12-05-2006, 11:15 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	This is a fine line of how original something is. I have seen lugers and other guns used in war that looked brand new, while I have seen others very beat up. It depends on how the gun was stored, both during and especially after the war. In the US Army I was told and sincerlly believe, more guns are worn out by over cleaning than shooting them. A friend of mine bought an artillery luger (originally made for WW1 and believed to have come back then), it sat in the basement in a trunk for 50-60 years, it is in really nice shape, but very "dried" out. I have also seen examples that were in a attic, hot as heck all summer, cold in the winter and the finnish on them was horrible, all dried wood, holster and the metal gets weird, ruins the finnish. Being stored for 50 years in a holster can ruin a gun, as the holster can hold mositure, yet I have seen lugers kept in a holster since after the war that look pristine. I am sure it depends on the weather in your area (hot and dry or moist and wet), where stored, how stored, how put away (freshly oiled and then put away, or blood or slightly damp when put away. It all depends. AND, it depends on where it came from. Sometimes we hear of a luger that the owner swears came off of a soldier nickled (this was common after the war to have them nickled or chromed, by the US GI), this never happened, but the GI or family will insist on it. It simply did not come that way from a German soldier. Or they insist it came from WW2, is a bring back, yet it has much newer import marking. Yes, the GI may have had one in WW2, but maybe he sold it and bought a new one. The family wants to beleive it is a WW2 bring back, and sometimes it simply isn't. After 50-60 years, stories get switched, changed and not remembered right, or embellished... Ed

12-05-2006, 11:35 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Jon DWM was the initial producer of Lugers and made ALL of the military Lugers until 1910-1911 when the Erfurt Arsenal started manufacturing them as well. As far as a WWI Luger being captured in WWII, I own a 1912 DWM military Luger that I got from one of my best friends. His father captured it in WWII near Bastogne. It is marked to a unit from WWI, so it saw service in two wars and is still in excellent original condition. Obviously the German soldier that had it took very good care of it, and probably had been cared for by his family members since it first saw service. Your "Expert gun store guys" need to keep walking toward the sunset. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-06-2006, 08:21 AM	#16
JonnyBlue User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: DE Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So your saying the luger I have wasn't brought back from the WWII?

12-06-2006, 10:16 AM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	who said that??? He said it was a WW1 item and his father captured it from WW2. This is very common. My comment was that you have to take everything with a grain of salt. Number 1 rule, buy the gun, not the story, because I have seen guns said as captured and weren't. Please read the entire posting and see what I meant... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-06-2006, 12:05 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Jon, I did not take it bad either sorry if I sounded that way Sometimes I write and try to throw in some extra tidbits, which can sound confusing. I have been impressed with your ability to get to the bottom, this makes the hunt and research fun! Ed