Another Safety Issue

Luke · 08-03-2005, 04:31 PM

I recently bought a complete, matching DWM toggle train for a shooter project. On initial observation the toggle system looks very good . . . clean, good blue, and all numbers match, including the firing pin.

By pure chance, I happened to look into the hole in the left toggle knob and noticed that the axle had slipped part-way out. Upon checking I found that the small vertical pin which is supposed to hold the axel in place was too short (appears to have been sheared off) and performs no function except to fill its hole in the toggle. From the top of the rear toggle link this tiny pin appears to be original - never messed with - and clean.

It seems possible that the axle could work its way out during firing, leaving the rear toggle link and the middle toggle link disconnected with results which would, predictably, not be good.

Just another lesson in building a shooter. Every detail should be thoroughly examined before firing an unknown 100 year old gun.

Luke

sambuscemi · 08-03-2005, 09:28 PM

Luke with the proper gauge pin your problem could be corrected for less than $2.00.

policeluger · 08-03-2005, 10:24 PM

Luke, for what it is worth, I have had to make these pins by turning down small SAE size stock.

Sieger · 08-03-2005, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sambuscemi
Luke with the proper gauge pin your problem could be corrected for less than $2.00.

Hi:

Thor fixed mine when mine broke loose after 87 years. Nothing to it!

Sieger

Luke · 08-04-2005, 05:41 AM

I thought maybe a cut-off piece of paper clip . . . . . .

lugerholsterrepair · 08-04-2005, 12:17 PM

Luke, A paper clip solution is probably tongue in cheek but one would want to consider the tensil strength of the replacement pin. I have used the smooth end of drill bits for pins but they could be too brittle.
Sam Buscemi is a steel expert and could perhaps shed some light on this..Sam? Jerry

Luke · 08-04-2005, 01:02 PM

Sam . . . .

Any suggestions for a simple solution would be appreciated.

Howard . . . .

I'm sure that turning SAE stock down would be an excellent solution, but I don't have a metal lathe and so seldom need one that buying such an expensive tool is probably not cost effective . . . . not to mention that I would probably be all thumbs with such a device.

Luke

policeluger · 08-04-2005, 01:58 PM

If you want, I'll ship out a small piece of stock, you can hand sand it down until it fits, at no charge......or I can fit you a pin if you want to ship it to me??

sambuscemi · 08-04-2005, 08:44 PM

Luke: You can buy guage pins in various diameters for this hole in the rear toggle anywhere from .057 to .062. The holes vary in size from gun to gun. These pins come in sizes with tolerances minus or plus over the nominal diameter which makes for perfect pressed fitting in that tiny hole. The pin length is almost always .240". What you do is stop in your local production tool supply house with your toggle in hand and ask them to fit the hole with a gauge pin. The tiny hole from my experience is a bit tapered. Once fitted with the proper size buy the pin with the tolerance on the plus side. +.0001" You will find the pin will go in approximately half way by hand which is perfect. Buy the pin - cost probably $2.00. Take it home and with a side cutter cut the pin on one end to about 3/8" long. Put the pin in a drill (drill in vise to act like a lathe) and face the pin with a medium file until it is .240" long which takes about 5 minutes of slow and easy and careful measuring as you go as not to take too much off. Once you have it to .240" in length put it in the hole with the original flat side facing up. This side up makes for the best cosmetic finish on the top side. Push it into the hole with your hand and cover with brass sheet to avoid any damage when you tap it all the way in with a hammer. Wal-la job done. With the taper you will have a nice tight fit, a straight pin to hold the axle - and a pin that won't come out when shooting. Gauge pins are hardened steel high carbon with very high tensiles and do not break. They are highly polished to tight dimensions and are easily fitted to various hole sizes due to the variety of sizes available. Gauge pins are machinist measuring tools coming in oil tempered, water tempered - oil and or air quenched (all things that are really not relative to a simple repair like this)(any type will do the trick with any of the various types all haveing the strength necessary for repair) and I have a complete set of 600. From .001" + & - all the way up to .500" For example if you find .059" + just doesn't seem tight enough when you fit by hand you can try the next size up like .060" minus (-) moving up in size in less than .001" increments. I have even made toggle axles out of gauge pins because of the tight tolerances I can hold. Please make sure before starting this feat that the axle flange is not damaged. If the flange is damaged the axle could turn and still slide out, this mostly happens on a repair when the tiny pin you replace is a bit short. The pin should go through the toggle but not so far as to hit the rail on the receiver when in the closed position. If you have any further questions please feel free to email me. I have repaired that tiny pin on several of my lugers and have never had a problem. If this is for a shooter just take care that you fit it properly when buying the gauge pin. If it only goes in a tiny bit you may have one that is too big - you want a pin that goes in about half way by hand. Experience has taught me that any less than that and the fit may be too tight and no matter how hard you hit it , it will not go in all the way. I hope this helps. SAM Buscemi

sambuscemi · 08-04-2005, 08:48 PM

Luke: By the way use a caliper to measure the toggle thickness and make the pin about .010" shorter than that distance and you will have a perfect sized pin replacement.

sambuscemi · 08-04-2005, 09:02 PM

Jerry: Thank you for your reference of expert. SAM

Luke · 08-13-2005, 02:47 PM

Sam -

Thank you for the excellent tutorial. I have just completed two items, and they both worked perfectly.

I am in a small town and we do not have a local production tool house here. However, Howard, policeluger, sent me a piece of stock and, with the help of your instructions, I was able to get two perfect pins out of the stock.

Luke

______________________________________________________

Howard -
Thanks much for the stock; I could not have succeeded without it. Very considerate of you to mail the material to me.
Luke
______________________________________________________

OH, BY THE WAY . . . . .
In the process of doing this, I checked my spare parts box and found that 2 of my 4 spare rear DWM toggle links have similar problems; the pins are broken off flush with the underside of the hole. Strongly suspect this is a common problem.

AND, RUNNING ON . . .

These two could not be repaired, because I could not get the old, sheared pins out. I ruined three punches in the attempt. They are now soaking in WD-40, but I suspect this will not help. They are REALLY tight in those little, tiny holes. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Again, thanks much Howard & Sam for the stock and advice.

Luke

policeluger · 08-13-2005, 07:04 PM

I don't know, but how about go from the underside, grind a small pin punch and drift enough out that a small, very small, wire cutter with its thin cutting edge can grab on and you can lever it out.....send a pic of the problem if that does not work and we'll see what we can do ong distance....thanks for the kind words.

Luke · 08-13-2005, 07:49 PM

Hello Howard,

Thanks for the prompt response to my inquiry.

Actually, I have tried using the solid part of a very small hardened drill bit as a punch; just broke the bit. Tried using the sharp point of a needle file; broke the point. Nothing seems to move this thing.

I am going to try something new tomorrow. I will place the toggle in the freezer overnight in hopes that the metal will shrink enough to allow the pin to be driven out.

I'll let you know if that works.

Thanks again,
Luke

sambuscemi · 08-13-2005, 10:18 PM

Luke: You must use the type of punch that is tapered. Small enough to tap the pin and go only about a sixteenth or less into the hole. The punch must be tapered (getting much larger as you go up) (punches used for finishing nails are a good example of the kind of punch I am talking about) to have the strength not to break. What this does is tap the tiny pin out the sixteenth or so and then you can put a straight punch into the hole and easily tap out the stuck pin. Has worked every time for me.

sambuscemi · 08-13-2005, 10:21 PM

Luke: I almost forgot in the rare case you can not get it out which has happened only about 2 times in 100, my local machine shop would use an EDM machine and in about 5 minutes and $10.00 it is out with the original hole left in perfect condition. This would be a small investment to avoid damaging the toggle.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-13-2005, 10:46 PM

Sam, I am amazed you know so much about this! I knew you were knowlegable but you really know your stuff! Good job...Jerry Burney

Luke · 08-14-2005, 06:19 AM

Hello Sam,

"punches used for finishing nails are a good example of the kind of punch I am talking about"

I'll start by getting one of the tapered punches you mention and attempting to remove the pin.

Thanks again,
Luke

sambuscemi · 08-20-2005, 01:38 PM

Jerry: My father was a machinist mate 1st class (some kind of Petty officer) in the Navy during WW2 in the Pacific and a jig and fixture machinist at General Motors from 1946 until he retired at 64 years of age. So I guess some of what he knew must have rubbed off on me. Gotta blame him. Talk later. SAM

08-03-2005, 04:31 PM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Another Safety Issue I recently bought a complete, matching DWM toggle train for a shooter project. On initial observation the toggle system looks very good . . . clean, good blue, and all numbers match, including the firing pin. By pure chance, I happened to look into the hole in the left toggle knob and noticed that the axle had slipped part-way out. Upon checking I found that the small vertical pin which is supposed to hold the axel in place was too short (appears to have been sheared off) and performs no function except to fill its hole in the toggle. From the top of the rear toggle link this tiny pin appears to be original - never messed with - and clean. It seems possible that the axle could work its way out during firing, leaving the rear toggle link and the middle toggle link disconnected with results which would, predictably, not be good. Just another lesson in building a shooter. Every detail should be thoroughly examined before firing an unknown 100 year old gun. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-04-2005, 05:41 AM	#5
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	I thought maybe a cut-off piece of paper clip . . . . . . __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-04-2005, 12:17 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Luke, A paper clip solution is probably tongue in cheek but one would want to consider the tensil strength of the replacement pin. I have used the smooth end of drill bits for pins but they could be too brittle. Sam Buscemi is a steel expert and could perhaps shed some light on this..Sam? Jerry __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-04-2005, 01:02 PM	#7
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Sam . . . . Any suggestions for a simple solution would be appreciated. Howard . . . . I'm sure that turning SAE stock down would be an excellent solution, but I don't have a metal lathe and so seldom need one that buying such an expensive tool is probably not cost effective . . . . not to mention that I would probably be all thumbs with such a device. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-13-2005, 02:47 PM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Sam - Thank you for the excellent tutorial. I have just completed two items, and they both worked perfectly. I am in a small town and we do not have a local production tool house here. However, Howard, policeluger, sent me a piece of stock and, with the help of your instructions, I was able to get two perfect pins out of the stock. Luke ______________________________________________________ Howard - Thanks much for the stock; I could not have succeeded without it. Very considerate of you to mail the material to me. Luke ______________________________________________________ OH, BY THE WAY . . . . . In the process of doing this, I checked my spare parts box and found that 2 of my 4 spare rear DWM toggle links have similar problems; the pins are broken off flush with the underside of the hole. Strongly suspect this is a common problem. AND, RUNNING ON . . . These two could not be repaired, because I could not get the old, sheared pins out. I ruined three punches in the attempt. They are now soaking in WD-40, but I suspect this will not help. They are REALLY tight in those little, tiny holes. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Again, thanks much Howard & Sam for the stock and advice. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-03-2005, 09:28 PM	#2
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Luke with the proper gauge pin your problem could be corrected for less than $2.00.

08-03-2005, 10:24 PM	#3
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Luke, for what it is worth, I have had to make these pins by turning down small SAE size stock.

08-04-2005, 01:58 PM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	If you want, I'll ship out a small piece of stock, you can hand sand it down until it fits, at no charge......or I can fit you a pin if you want to ship it to me??

08-04-2005, 08:44 PM	#9
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Luke: You can buy guage pins in various diameters for this hole in the rear toggle anywhere from .057 to .062. The holes vary in size from gun to gun. These pins come in sizes with tolerances minus or plus over the nominal diameter which makes for perfect pressed fitting in that tiny hole. The pin length is almost always .240". What you do is stop in your local production tool supply house with your toggle in hand and ask them to fit the hole with a gauge pin. The tiny hole from my experience is a bit tapered. Once fitted with the proper size buy the pin with the tolerance on the plus side. +.0001" You will find the pin will go in approximately half way by hand which is perfect. Buy the pin - cost probably $2.00. Take it home and with a side cutter cut the pin on one end to about 3/8" long. Put the pin in a drill (drill in vise to act like a lathe) and face the pin with a medium file until it is .240" long which takes about 5 minutes of slow and easy and careful measuring as you go as not to take too much off. Once you have it to .240" in length put it in the hole with the original flat side facing up. This side up makes for the best cosmetic finish on the top side. Push it into the hole with your hand and cover with brass sheet to avoid any damage when you tap it all the way in with a hammer. Wal-la job done. With the taper you will have a nice tight fit, a straight pin to hold the axle - and a pin that won't come out when shooting. Gauge pins are hardened steel high carbon with very high tensiles and do not break. They are highly polished to tight dimensions and are easily fitted to various hole sizes due to the variety of sizes available. Gauge pins are machinist measuring tools coming in oil tempered, water tempered - oil and or air quenched (all things that are really not relative to a simple repair like this)(any type will do the trick with any of the various types all haveing the strength necessary for repair) and I have a complete set of 600. From .001" + & - all the way up to .500" For example if you find .059" + just doesn't seem tight enough when you fit by hand you can try the next size up like .060" minus (-) moving up in size in less than .001" increments. I have even made toggle axles out of gauge pins because of the tight tolerances I can hold. Please make sure before starting this feat that the axle flange is not damaged. If the flange is damaged the axle could turn and still slide out, this mostly happens on a repair when the tiny pin you replace is a bit short. The pin should go through the toggle but not so far as to hit the rail on the receiver when in the closed position. If you have any further questions please feel free to email me. I have repaired that tiny pin on several of my lugers and have never had a problem. If this is for a shooter just take care that you fit it properly when buying the gauge pin. If it only goes in a tiny bit you may have one that is too big - you want a pin that goes in about half way by hand. Experience has taught me that any less than that and the fit may be too tight and no matter how hard you hit it , it will not go in all the way. I hope this helps. SAM Buscemi

08-04-2005, 08:48 PM	#10
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Luke: By the way use a caliper to measure the toggle thickness and make the pin about .010" shorter than that distance and you will have a perfect sized pin replacement.

08-04-2005, 09:02 PM	#11
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Jerry: Thank you for your reference of expert. SAM

08-13-2005, 07:04 PM	#13
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I don't know, but how about go from the underside, grind a small pin punch and drift enough out that a small, very small, wire cutter with its thin cutting edge can grab on and you can lever it out.....send a pic of the problem if that does not work and we'll see what we can do ong distance....thanks for the kind words.

08-13-2005, 07:49 PM	#14
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Howard, Thanks for the prompt response to my inquiry. Actually, I have tried using the solid part of a very small hardened drill bit as a punch; just broke the bit. Tried using the sharp point of a needle file; broke the point. Nothing seems to move this thing. I am going to try something new tomorrow. I will place the toggle in the freezer overnight in hopes that the metal will shrink enough to allow the pin to be driven out. I'll let you know if that works. Thanks again, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-13-2005, 10:18 PM	#15
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Luke: You must use the type of punch that is tapered. Small enough to tap the pin and go only about a sixteenth or less into the hole. The punch must be tapered (getting much larger as you go up) (punches used for finishing nails are a good example of the kind of punch I am talking about) to have the strength not to break. What this does is tap the tiny pin out the sixteenth or so and then you can put a straight punch into the hole and easily tap out the stuck pin. Has worked every time for me.

08-13-2005, 10:21 PM	#16
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Luke: I almost forgot in the rare case you can not get it out which has happened only about 2 times in 100, my local machine shop would use an EDM machine and in about 5 minutes and $10.00 it is out with the original hole left in perfect condition. This would be a small investment to avoid damaging the toggle.

08-13-2005, 10:46 PM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Sam, I am amazed you know so much about this! I knew you were knowlegable but you really know your stuff! Good job...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-14-2005, 06:19 AM	#18
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Sam, "punches used for finishing nails are a good example of the kind of punch I am talking about" I'll start by getting one of the tapered punches you mention and attempting to remove the pin. Thanks again, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-20-2005, 01:38 PM	#19
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	Jerry: My father was a machinist mate 1st class (some kind of Petty officer) in the Navy during WW2 in the Pacific and a jig and fixture machinist at General Motors from 1946 until he retired at 64 years of age. So I guess some of what he knew must have rubbed off on me. Gotta blame him. Talk later. SAM