Commercial Swiss Luger rig with Sunburst ?

pisto · 10-30-2004, 02:21 PM

Dwight Gruber · 10-30-2004, 03:38 PM

Roland,

Are there any marks on the right receiver?

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 10-30-2004, 05:20 PM

Hi Roland,

Could you take a good close-up photo of the cross/sunburst on the chamber ?

Also...I assume calibre is 7,65 and not 9 mm ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

pisto · 10-30-2004, 06:26 PM

Dwight and Pete:

the only marks are beside the serial number:
Swiss cross which is the army accaptance normally
and
Swiss test firing stamp "PB"
It is a 7,65 Para caliber.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/beschu_copy1.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/right_copy2.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sunburst.jpg

G.T. · 10-31-2004, 04:46 PM

Hi Roland... the Swiss btt'm looks pretty nice! Show me a closeup pic! I know how tough they are to make... you are to be commended for your work!! Best to you, til...lat'r....GT

Pete Ebbink · 10-31-2004, 06:54 PM

Hi Roland,

Could you also post a good close up of the barrel/receiver witness marks...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

pisto · 11-01-2004, 03:29 AM

Hello G.T. and Pete,
here are the pics of the magazine:
Pete, will post the witness marks this evening as well.
IÃ?Â´m doing that bottoms a few years now and IÃ?Â´m shure I could sell them as original and people wouldnÃ?Â´t recognize it - to hard for me that there already some far east repros on the market, and I can not fight against that Chinese people who are producing that parts soo cheap. The only difference is the quality. I have designed tools for the Navy bottoms also, hope I will earn some coins to spend into my collection again.

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0007.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...0008_copy1.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...0009_copy1.jpg

G.T. · 11-01-2004, 04:10 AM

Very nice Roland! when I first started making magazine bottoms, 20 years ago!, I was deluged with request to put numbers on them to match pistols... I immeadiatly said no, and requests dropped to almost zero! I have always represented my work as new, new stock.... I don't sell very many bottoms as mine are also a little more pricy then the current repros, but I sleep well at night! Best to you Roland, and again, very nice work! til...lat'r...GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 11-01-2004, 10:49 AM

Hi Roland,

Do you have a book written by Horst Rutsch titled "Faustfeuerwaffen Der Edigenossen" ? (ISBN 3-87943-596-3). It is written in German.

On pages 220 through 229, he has a write up about M06/1920 DWM reworks for the Swiss market. (Not to be confused with the regular Swiss commerical lugers DWM made for the civilian market in CH.)

Probably left-over inventory from WWI during the Weimar period that was completed and chamber marked for the Swiss shooter market during the 1920's in CH.

Several lugers are photographed and several are similar to yours...4xxx n serial number range and some with no Crown/N or no BUG proof marks. Two lugers are shown; one with # 4111 n and the other with # 4295 n. All with .30 cal. 4-3/4" barrels, the cross/sunburst on the chamber, grip safety, both with the long frame and the short frame. Several show the barrel with the Bernerprobe and a small swiss cross added as well.

I have not had time to try to translate the German text. If you send me your email (send to "pebbink@pacbell.net"), I would be happy to scan these 9 pages and email them to you as jpeg files or pdf files (let me know which you prefer).

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

pisto · 11-01-2004, 04:00 PM

Pete,
I thanks a lot for your help!!
The date inside the grips on the owners little note says 1933. I should have that "Rutsch" book as well - probably not easy to get anymore!
i have only the book: "Pistolen und Revolver der Schweiz seit 1920" from JÃ?Â¼rg A. Meier and Kriss Reinhart - they donÃ?Â´t tell too much!
If you can send me jpeg files, that would be nice.
pisto.lero@gmx.de

here is a pic of the witness mark;

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...ness_marks.jpg

Pete Ebbink · 11-01-2004, 07:37 PM

Roland,

Will do Wednesday of this week. I am backed up a bit with work...and since that pays the bills and allows purchasing of lugers...it should have its priority.

I saw your photo of the Owner's name and 1933 on the paper tag on your grips. My guess is that 1933 might have been the year that fellow owned it.

I would guess 1933 is much too late for a Weimar rework with gun parts un-used WWI inventory. If your gun was a 1933 production piece, I would guess it would have a 5-digit serial number...just a WAG, though.

p.s. The book I mentioned is almost impossible to find for sale here in the USA. I got "Guisan" to chase one down for me in Holland or during his travels to CH...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 11-01-2004, 08:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
...On pages 220 through 229, he has a write up about M06/1920 DWM reworks for the Swiss market. (Not to be confused with the regular Swiss commerical lugers DWM made for the civilian market in CH.)

Probably left-over inventory from WWI during the Weimar period that was completed and chamber marked for the Swiss shooter market during the 1920's in CH.<hr /></blockquote>Roland and Pete,

This was the reason for my question about the right receiver. The Swiss conversion I had an opportunity to examine a few weeks ago (the one I told you about, Pete) had its full complement of Imperial inspector stamps and proof, as well as the appropriate Swiss markings.

--Dwight

pisto · 11-09-2004, 02:59 PM

Thanks to Pete for sending me copies of the Rutsch book, I had the chance to find out more on that Swiss Rework 06/1920 DWM.
Because of lac of commercial target pistols in Swizerland DWM (called BKI Berlin-Karlsruher Industriewerke after WWI) came to the idea to make some money selling Lugers to Switzerland.
Swiss Gunfactories have had no chance to produce some commercial Lugers because the Military needs them all at that time!
There exists 2 main categories -
a) German Army pistol rework (made from a huge ammount of purchased Lugers from the German government)
These pistols are alternated as following
Stock lug removed, Safety "Gesichert" milled out, Grip safety added. Chamber date removed and Swiss cross in Sunburs added.

b) Pistol out of new parts comming from the large military contract still remaining at the German DWM plant.
mine should be the one put together with new DWM parts, stamped with the Swiss sunburst and sold to Swizerland.
However the barrel seems to be fitted in Swizerland as well, because of the withness mark and "PB" proof (Berner BeschuÃ??) = overloaded test firing. The swiss cross could mean that this was made by an autorisized Swiss gunmaker who is allowed to stamp the cross.
The serial numbers are all the same style of characters, so it should be numbered in Swizerland as well!
IÃ?Â´m not shure but the chamber date could be removed as well on the reciever to stamped the Sunburst.
My frame looks like original with the grip safety.

All Swiss 06/1920 DWM Reworks in RutchÃ?Â´s book have the Crown/N ore Military proof - except the Abercombie Fitch contract and this one IÃ?Â´m introducing here.

Unfortunatedly the gun is alternated with a U sight and matching front sight.

Pete Ebbink · 08-14-2005, 02:55 PM

Roland,

Would it be possible to post some more photos of your holster...it is quite a beauty and somewhat rare...!

Especially any maker markings and Swiss military acceptable proofs (if it has any...)...

Pete Ebbink · 08-14-2005, 03:04 PM

Hi Roland,

Sorry...found the photos in your previous posting...

I have lightened up the three holster photos for better detail...

It looks like an unmarked holster...???

10-30-2004, 02:21 PM	#1
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Commercial Swiss Luger rig with Sunburst ? Hello, have had some good luck to get another Swiss Luger with matching holster. This one seems first to me to be a 06 Sunburst , but the serial number 4404 is belonging to the 1900 models. then I recognized a suffix letter on the frame below ser.nr. "n" - I could find out that it must be a commercial Swiss Luger. Never heard that before, but here are the pics: It came with a 1924 wood bottom mag, but I replaced that into a metal disc mag, which I made by myself - donÃ?Â´t know which magazine would be more correct? http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0002.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0003.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0004.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0006.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0008.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0009.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0010.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0011.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0013.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0015.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0016.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0018.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0017.jpg

11-01-2004, 08:09 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink: <strong>...On pages 220 through 229, he has a write up about M06/1920 DWM reworks for the Swiss market. (Not to be confused with the regular Swiss commerical lugers DWM made for the civilian market in CH.) Probably left-over inventory from WWI during the Weimar period that was completed and chamber marked for the Swiss shooter market during the 1920's in CH.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Roland and Pete, This was the reason for my question about the right receiver. The Swiss conversion I had an opportunity to examine a few weeks ago (the one I told you about, Pete) had its full complement of Imperial inspector stamps and proof, as well as the appropriate Swiss markings. --Dwight

10-30-2004, 03:38 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Roland, Are there any marks on the right receiver? --Dwight

10-30-2004, 05:20 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Roland, Could you take a good close-up photo of the cross/sunburst on the chamber ? Also...I assume calibre is 7,65 and not 9 mm ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-30-2004, 06:26 PM	#4
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight and Pete: the only marks are beside the serial number: Swiss cross which is the army accaptance normally and Swiss test firing stamp "PB" It is a 7,65 Para caliber. http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/beschu_copy1.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/right_copy2.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sunburst.jpg

10-31-2004, 04:46 PM	#5
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Roland... the Swiss btt'm looks pretty nice! Show me a closeup pic! I know how tough they are to make... you are to be commended for your work!! Best to you, til...lat'r....GT

10-31-2004, 06:54 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Roland, Could you also post a good close up of the barrel/receiver witness marks...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-01-2004, 03:29 AM	#7
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello G.T. and Pete, here are the pics of the magazine: Pete, will post the witness marks this evening as well. IÃ?Â´m doing that bottoms a few years now and IÃ?Â´m shure I could sell them as original and people wouldnÃ?Â´t recognize it - to hard for me that there already some far east repros on the market, and I can not fight against that Chinese people who are producing that parts soo cheap. The only difference is the quality. I have designed tools for the Navy bottoms also, hope I will earn some coins to spend into my collection again. http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simg0007.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...0008_copy1.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...0009_copy1.jpg

11-01-2004, 04:10 AM	#8
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Very nice Roland! when I first started making magazine bottoms, 20 years ago!, I was deluged with request to put numbers on them to match pistols... I immeadiatly said no, and requests dropped to almost zero! I have always represented my work as new, new stock.... I don't sell very many bottoms as mine are also a little more pricy then the current repros, but I sleep well at night! Best to you Roland, and again, very nice work! til...lat'r...GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

11-01-2004, 10:49 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Roland, Do you have a book written by Horst Rutsch titled "Faustfeuerwaffen Der Edigenossen" ? (ISBN 3-87943-596-3). It is written in German. On pages 220 through 229, he has a write up about M06/1920 DWM reworks for the Swiss market. (Not to be confused with the regular Swiss commerical lugers DWM made for the civilian market in CH.) Probably left-over inventory from WWI during the Weimar period that was completed and chamber marked for the Swiss shooter market during the 1920's in CH. Several lugers are photographed and several are similar to yours...4xxx n serial number range and some with no Crown/N or no BUG proof marks. Two lugers are shown; one with # 4111 n and the other with # 4295 n. All with .30 cal. 4-3/4" barrels, the cross/sunburst on the chamber, grip safety, both with the long frame and the short frame. Several show the barrel with the Bernerprobe and a small swiss cross added as well. I have not had time to try to translate the German text. If you send me your email (send to "pebbink@pacbell.net"), I would be happy to scan these 9 pages and email them to you as jpeg files or pdf files (let me know which you prefer). Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-01-2004, 04:00 PM	#10
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, I thanks a lot for your help!! The date inside the grips on the owners little note says 1933. I should have that "Rutsch" book as well - probably not easy to get anymore! i have only the book: "Pistolen und Revolver der Schweiz seit 1920" from JÃ?Â¼rg A. Meier and Kriss Reinhart - they donÃ?Â´t tell too much! If you can send me jpeg files, that would be nice. pisto.lero@gmx.de here is a pic of the witness mark; http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...ness_marks.jpg

11-01-2004, 07:37 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Roland, Will do Wednesday of this week. I am backed up a bit with work...and since that pays the bills and allows purchasing of lugers...it should have its priority. I saw your photo of the Owner's name and 1933 on the paper tag on your grips. My guess is that 1933 might have been the year that fellow owned it. I would guess 1933 is much too late for a Weimar rework with gun parts un-used WWI inventory. If your gun was a 1933 production piece, I would guess it would have a 5-digit serial number...just a WAG, though. p.s. The book I mentioned is almost impossible to find for sale here in the USA. I got "Guisan" to chase one down for me in Holland or during his travels to CH... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-09-2004, 02:59 PM	#13
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to Pete for sending me copies of the Rutsch book, I had the chance to find out more on that Swiss Rework 06/1920 DWM. Because of lac of commercial target pistols in Swizerland DWM (called BKI Berlin-Karlsruher Industriewerke after WWI) came to the idea to make some money selling Lugers to Switzerland. Swiss Gunfactories have had no chance to produce some commercial Lugers because the Military needs them all at that time! There exists 2 main categories - a) German Army pistol rework (made from a huge ammount of purchased Lugers from the German government) These pistols are alternated as following Stock lug removed, Safety "Gesichert" milled out, Grip safety added. Chamber date removed and Swiss cross in Sunburs added. b) Pistol out of new parts comming from the large military contract still remaining at the German DWM plant. mine should be the one put together with new DWM parts, stamped with the Swiss sunburst and sold to Swizerland. However the barrel seems to be fitted in Swizerland as well, because of the withness mark and "PB" proof (Berner BeschuÃ??) = overloaded test firing. The swiss cross could mean that this was made by an autorisized Swiss gunmaker who is allowed to stamp the cross. The serial numbers are all the same style of characters, so it should be numbered in Swizerland as well! IÃ?Â´m not shure but the chamber date could be removed as well on the reciever to stamped the Sunburst. My frame looks like original with the grip safety. All Swiss 06/1920 DWM Reworks in RutchÃ?Â´s book have the Crown/N ore Military proof - except the Abercombie Fitch contract and this one IÃ?Â´m introducing here. Unfortunatedly the gun is alternated with a U sight and matching front sight.

08-14-2005, 02:55 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Roland, Would it be possible to post some more photos of your holster...it is quite a beauty and somewhat rare...! Especially any maker markings and Swiss military acceptable proofs (if it has any...)...

08-14-2005, 03:04 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Roland, Sorry...found the photos in your previous posting... I have lightened up the three holster photos for better detail... It looks like an unmarked holster...???