1906 Russian Luger on GunBroker

Big Norm · 07-14-2005, 01:52 AM

Well there has been no discussion regarding the 1906 Russian Luger on Gunbroker so I will start one.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34556290

Lotsa moola for this gun but the Russian Luger has always fascinated me But the prices have always scared me off (to speak nothing about my fear of all really rare and expensive Lugers). But if Pete can start some good discussions, so can I.
Big Norm

_________________________________

What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

Edward Tinker · 07-14-2005, 02:22 AM

$10,000, that isn't liable to sell, at least not without looking it over close. Plus, some proof of being "Mel's"...

Ed

JTD · 07-14-2005, 04:39 AM

Not to long ago, I think on ebay, I saw a barreled upper go off. Would really watch this one. I figured another would show up in the future.No serial listed, vague on where it came from. May be good one, but would beware if I were to buy! John

10e.licorne · 07-14-2005, 05:57 AM

may be I make a mistake
It is say it was for the russian army
it's a civil firearm for officer and not a militarian item
sorry for my english

George Anderson · 07-14-2005, 09:19 AM

This seller is trying to move his whole collection. This Russian and a number of his other exotics, as I recall, came from one dealer. A very high profile dealer in fact...almost celebrity status what with TV appearances, etc.

drbuster · 07-14-2005, 10:18 AM

Russian 1906 Lugers ARE rare! There is not much written about them. Nothing about them is in Stills "Luger triad", not even a listing on the commercial page in Imperial Lugers. The only thing I found is on page 239 of Walter's Luger Book. He believes they might have been for Czarist Officers and not an official Russian government issue due to the lack of the "Provnaya Kommisiya" proofmark. Also he mentions the lack of bayonets on the crossed Mosin-Nagant rifles as seen on the "authentic" FN-Brownings. It's a fascinating mystery. I have read that since the fall of the Soviet Union, that more of these might be surfacing, but the few that have been seen are either chrome plated or in poor condition. As for "Mel's" collection, I was lucky to acquire a "41" dated Mauser commercial with two matching magazines in near 100% condition at a past Reno show that had provenence from many "experts". He was known to have good stuff and I don't see any reason NOT to believe that this Russian example is totally authentic. I think the gripe here is with the price. Take a look at the recent web sites of several of the on-line dealers...we are seeing "Lugerflation". This is hot on the heels of "Coltflation".

Navy · 07-14-2005, 10:40 AM

Anyone know who the seller is?

Tom A.

George Anderson · 07-14-2005, 11:42 AM

I have spoken with him and a friend in NC has met up with him. I would be very reluctant to buy this pistol even using Tom's money.

Pete Ebbink · 07-14-2005, 11:46 AM

Photos from the G-B auction ad :

Pete Ebbink · 07-14-2005, 12:02 PM

Same seller's other offering...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34558828

drbuster · 07-14-2005, 12:46 PM

There's NOTHING wrong with this Russian 1906! If anyone values Mike Krause's opinions (He who has had almost 50 years of Luger experience in all facets of the hobby [collecting..manufacturing]), I brought up these photos on his computer and he says it's absolutely righteous. He has owned at least two of these over the years. He does comment that the price is kind of high. He would value it (as seen second hand only) at $7-9K, which I feel is on the conservative side.

drbuster · 07-14-2005, 12:49 PM

By the way, Mike Krause also thinks the Portuguese is righteous, but valued about $1K more than he would sell it at.

George Anderson · 07-14-2005, 01:03 PM

I stand by my earlier statement.

Big Norm · 07-14-2005, 01:18 PM

Once I had a chance to buy a Russian Luger from a reliable dealer for $8000. But the gun was restored so I backed off. Its really tough to have a real expert go over a really RARE Luger because experts who really know the guns are so rare themselves. Another problem is that when I try to sell one of those rare lugers. It is hard to find someone who understands that a rare Luger will be pricey. There are experts out there but they are scattered all over the USA. Hard to find when you need them.

drbuster,
you are right about Lugerflation. I recently saw a sale on the internet where there were some very nice model 1914 navies for sale. They were generally priced at $3500+. One went for $4200 and I was shocked. The guys current sale has model 1914 navies priced at $5000. GAG!!! Now these navies are nice and have matching mags. But...$5000?

Your comment about Walters book is also right on the money. When I am relaxed with an adult beverage at hand and my shoes off, I frequently read that book. Hard to figure out at first, but loaded with useful information. Right up there with Jan Stills books (maybe a tad higher in my humble and frequently challenged opinion).

George Arnderson,
I have only gone to the Chantilly show once. The one that I met you at. But if you are talking about the same guy that I am thinking of... I absolutely, 100%, hands down, dead nuts agree with you. If the other dealer that you described is also the one that I am thinking about then I also agree with you, even though I like him and once even bought a gun off of him. But if I was using Tom A's money, then I might have a bit more courage.

To all,
if we are talking about the same "Mel" that I think has been touched on in other discussions on this forum, then who made him an expert? He had lotsa money because of his great talent. But there are lotsa people out there who have a bunch of money that I wouldn't buy ANYTHING off off. Celebreties are known for their talent and not necessarily for their intelligence.

But this Russian Luger does look pretty good in the limited pictures. I sent an email to the seller requesting more close-up pictures, but I still haven't received a reply.
Big Norm

drbuster · 07-14-2005, 02:25 PM

Dear Big Norm, I agree that "Mel" was no expert, but with the big bucks, he allegedly dealt with "experts". Many entertainers are, or have bought, collectible Lugers over the years (Mel Torme, Buddy Hackett, Sammy Davis Jr., Dan Dailey, James Earl Jones, etc...the list goes on). I have been told that they did not lose money. Recently, prices have just shot out of sight, much like what is happening in the housing market. As long as there are buyers out there buying limited inventory, prices have to go up. And with the stock market no great shakes over the past few years, investment money is finding its way into collectibles. How much should a rare Luger sell for? That 1904 Navy went for just over $63K on the recent Rock Island auction. Mike Krause sold that exact same Luger about 20 years ago for $20K. When one gets into the "rare" Lugers, just like the Pattersons and Dragoons, money wants to be made. Not for the feint of heart. Another way to say it: Buyer beware and know your seller!

Pete Ebbink · 07-14-2005, 03:23 PM

Lots of lugers beind sold with the story of being in the Mel Torme and even the Pat Redmond collection; as of late.

Without some paperwork proving the previous owner's ownership (i.e. sales receipt with the infamous person's name or insurance declaration, etc.) and a record of the actual serial number...well then...it is just a "story"...

Don't forget that fellow on Jan Still's gunboard a few months back trying to match up (with a consecutive numbered luger) and inflate the value of a M1900 commercial claimed to be the "Eastman" luger.

Navy · 07-14-2005, 04:21 PM

All,

The recent death of my Mother left me with a nice cash legacy. I promptly invested 25% of it in very rare Lugers. I am confident I will outpace the stock market easily.

I bought the very highest quality and rarity I could find and have had not 1 nono-second of buyer's remorse.

Tom A.

George Anderson · 07-14-2005, 04:42 PM

I believe that one of Mr Torme's major sources for his collection was also the final outlet for a large part of the the collection. This same source is.....never mind.

Pete Ebbink · 07-14-2005, 09:09 PM

George,

What is more tragic than this fellow finding out he does not have what he thought it has...is after a few other collectors have looked over his stuff and told him the bad news...he is still trying to pass these off to the next unfortunate collector...at top dollar...

Big Norm · 07-15-2005, 02:25 AM

Oh well, I guess this comes in the catagory of the sellers father or grandfather taking the Luger off of a dead German general dring WW1 or WW2. Sales talk (lying) can sucker in a lot of guys.

drbuster,
I thought that Buddy Hackett was a sword collector. I also thought that the only thing that Sammy Davis Jr. collected was very beautiful women.But I stand by my qualified statement that "Celebreties are known for their talent and NOT NECESSARILY for their intelligence". For instance, I don't think that I would buy a Luger or anything else off of Brittany Spears.But there are some celebrety stars who did make very intelligent investments. Randolph Scott, a pre John Wayne movie hero, used his movie money to buy a considerable amount of land in the San Bernadino Valley, News papers erroneously labeled him as a real estate salesman in his later years. Actually, he was selling off his own property at a considerable profit.

I don't know who was making the 1904 navies in the 70's. I do know that the early ones were a bit inaccurate. But the later ones were pretty good counterfeits. I thought (and can be wrong) that Krause had to put his name on the toggle because DWM was copywrite protected. I hold great disgust for people who make EXACT copies of collectors items in any arena for the purpose of cheating the unsuspecting.I don't care if they have one year of experience or 50 years of experience. But some jerks seem to take pride in cheating people.
Big Norm

07-14-2005, 01:52 AM	#1
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	1906 Russian Luger on GunBroker Well there has been no discussion regarding the 1906 Russian Luger on Gunbroker so I will start one. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34556290 Lotsa moola for this gun but the Russian Luger has always fascinated me But the prices have always scared me off (to speak nothing about my fear of all really rare and expensive Lugers). But if Pete can start some good discussions, so can I. Big Norm _________________________________ What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

07-14-2005, 02:22 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	$10,000, that isn't liable to sell, at least not without looking it over close. Plus, some proof of being "Mel's"... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-14-2005, 05:57 AM	#4
10e.licorne User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: near Perpignan in France Posts: 85 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	may be I make a mistake It is say it was for the russian army it's a civil firearm for officer and not a militarian item sorry for my english __________________ d'nt say i will do it .... do it

07-14-2005, 04:39 AM	#3
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 428 Thanks: 218 Thanked 410 Times in 151 Posts	Not to long ago, I think on ebay, I saw a barreled upper go off. Would really watch this one. I figured another would show up in the future.No serial listed, vague on where it came from. May be good one, but would beware if I were to buy! John

07-14-2005, 09:19 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	This seller is trying to move his whole collection. This Russian and a number of his other exotics, as I recall, came from one dealer. A very high profile dealer in fact...almost celebrity status what with TV appearances, etc.

07-14-2005, 10:18 AM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Russian 1906 Lugers ARE rare! There is not much written about them. Nothing about them is in Stills "Luger triad", not even a listing on the commercial page in Imperial Lugers. The only thing I found is on page 239 of Walter's Luger Book. He believes they might have been for Czarist Officers and not an official Russian government issue due to the lack of the "Provnaya Kommisiya" proofmark. Also he mentions the lack of bayonets on the crossed Mosin-Nagant rifles as seen on the "authentic" FN-Brownings. It's a fascinating mystery. I have read that since the fall of the Soviet Union, that more of these might be surfacing, but the few that have been seen are either chrome plated or in poor condition. As for "Mel's" collection, I was lucky to acquire a "41" dated Mauser commercial with two matching magazines in near 100% condition at a past Reno show that had provenence from many "experts". He was known to have good stuff and I don't see any reason NOT to believe that this Russian example is totally authentic. I think the gripe here is with the price. Take a look at the recent web sites of several of the on-line dealers...we are seeing "Lugerflation". This is hot on the heels of "Coltflation".

07-14-2005, 10:40 AM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Anyone know who the seller is? Tom A.

07-14-2005, 11:42 AM	#8
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I have spoken with him and a friend in NC has met up with him. I would be very reluctant to buy this pistol even using Tom's money.

07-14-2005, 11:46 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Photos from the G-B auction ad :

07-14-2005, 12:02 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Same seller's other offering... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34558828

07-14-2005, 12:46 PM	#11
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	There's NOTHING wrong with this Russian 1906! If anyone values Mike Krause's opinions (He who has had almost 50 years of Luger experience in all facets of the hobby [collecting..manufacturing]), I brought up these photos on his computer and he says it's absolutely righteous. He has owned at least two of these over the years. He does comment that the price is kind of high. He would value it (as seen second hand only) at $7-9K, which I feel is on the conservative side.

07-14-2005, 12:49 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	By the way, Mike Krause also thinks the Portuguese is righteous, but valued about $1K more than he would sell it at.

07-14-2005, 01:03 PM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I stand by my earlier statement.

07-14-2005, 01:18 PM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Once I had a chance to buy a Russian Luger from a reliable dealer for $8000. But the gun was restored so I backed off. Its really tough to have a real expert go over a really RARE Luger because experts who really know the guns are so rare themselves. Another problem is that when I try to sell one of those rare lugers. It is hard to find someone who understands that a rare Luger will be pricey. There are experts out there but they are scattered all over the USA. Hard to find when you need them. drbuster, you are right about Lugerflation. I recently saw a sale on the internet where there were some very nice model 1914 navies for sale. They were generally priced at $3500+. One went for $4200 and I was shocked. The guys current sale has model 1914 navies priced at $5000. GAG!!! Now these navies are nice and have matching mags. But...$5000? Your comment about Walters book is also right on the money. When I am relaxed with an adult beverage at hand and my shoes off, I frequently read that book. Hard to figure out at first, but loaded with useful information. Right up there with Jan Stills books (maybe a tad higher in my humble and frequently challenged opinion). George Arnderson, I have only gone to the Chantilly show once. The one that I met you at. But if you are talking about the same guy that I am thinking of... I absolutely, 100%, hands down, dead nuts agree with you. If the other dealer that you described is also the one that I am thinking about then I also agree with you, even though I like him and once even bought a gun off of him. But if I was using Tom A's money, then I might have a bit more courage. To all, if we are talking about the same "Mel" that I think has been touched on in other discussions on this forum, then who made him an expert? He had lotsa money because of his great talent. But there are lotsa people out there who have a bunch of money that I wouldn't buy ANYTHING off off. Celebreties are known for their talent and not necessarily for their intelligence. But this Russian Luger does look pretty good in the limited pictures. I sent an email to the seller requesting more close-up pictures, but I still haven't received a reply. Big Norm

07-14-2005, 02:25 PM	#15
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Big Norm, I agree that "Mel" was no expert, but with the big bucks, he allegedly dealt with "experts". Many entertainers are, or have bought, collectible Lugers over the years (Mel Torme, Buddy Hackett, Sammy Davis Jr., Dan Dailey, James Earl Jones, etc...the list goes on). I have been told that they did not lose money. Recently, prices have just shot out of sight, much like what is happening in the housing market. As long as there are buyers out there buying limited inventory, prices have to go up. And with the stock market no great shakes over the past few years, investment money is finding its way into collectibles. How much should a rare Luger sell for? That 1904 Navy went for just over $63K on the recent Rock Island auction. Mike Krause sold that exact same Luger about 20 years ago for $20K. When one gets into the "rare" Lugers, just like the Pattersons and Dragoons, money wants to be made. Not for the feint of heart. Another way to say it: Buyer beware and know your seller!

07-14-2005, 03:23 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Lots of lugers beind sold with the story of being in the Mel Torme and even the Pat Redmond collection; as of late. Without some paperwork proving the previous owner's ownership (i.e. sales receipt with the infamous person's name or insurance declaration, etc.) and a record of the actual serial number...well then...it is just a "story"... Don't forget that fellow on Jan Still's gunboard a few months back trying to match up (with a consecutive numbered luger) and inflate the value of a M1900 commercial claimed to be the "Eastman" luger.

07-14-2005, 04:21 PM	#17
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, The recent death of my Mother left me with a nice cash legacy. I promptly invested 25% of it in very rare Lugers. I am confident I will outpace the stock market easily. I bought the very highest quality and rarity I could find and have had not 1 nono-second of buyer's remorse. Tom A.

07-14-2005, 04:42 PM	#18
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I believe that one of Mr Torme's major sources for his collection was also the final outlet for a large part of the the collection. This same source is.....never mind.

07-14-2005, 09:09 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	George, What is more tragic than this fellow finding out he does not have what he thought it has...is after a few other collectors have looked over his stuff and told him the bad news...he is still trying to pass these off to the next unfortunate collector...at top dollar...

07-15-2005, 02:25 AM	#20
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Oh well, I guess this comes in the catagory of the sellers father or grandfather taking the Luger off of a dead German general dring WW1 or WW2. Sales talk (lying) can sucker in a lot of guys. drbuster, I thought that Buddy Hackett was a sword collector. I also thought that the only thing that Sammy Davis Jr. collected was very beautiful women.But I stand by my qualified statement that "Celebreties are known for their talent and NOT NECESSARILY for their intelligence". For instance, I don't think that I would buy a Luger or anything else off of Brittany Spears.But there are some celebrety stars who did make very intelligent investments. Randolph Scott, a pre John Wayne movie hero, used his movie money to buy a considerable amount of land in the San Bernadino Valley, News papers erroneously labeled him as a real estate salesman in his later years. Actually, he was selling off his own property at a considerable profit. I don't know who was making the 1904 navies in the 70's. I do know that the early ones were a bit inaccurate. But the later ones were pretty good counterfeits. I thought (and can be wrong) that Krause had to put his name on the toggle because DWM was copywrite protected. I hold great disgust for people who make EXACT copies of collectors items in any arena for the purpose of cheating the unsuspecting.I don't care if they have one year of experience or 50 years of experience. But some jerks seem to take pride in cheating people. Big Norm