Commercial artillery

Steve Richards · 09-02-2003, 08:13 PM

My artillery is an Erfurt 1930's comercial. My question is was it common for these to be assembled from mixed serial numbered parts. It has almost no matching numbers. That would not happen if a few parts break and are replaced. It is more like someone just went to parts bins and randomly grabbed numbered parts.

Is this common on these models?

Edward Tinker · 09-02-2003, 08:50 PM

Maybe someone made it from parts here in the USA?

Lots of people want an Arty?

Ed

Big Norm · 09-03-2003, 01:52 PM

Its an American Era rare prototype covering the approximate years 1960 thru 2003. A long production run of small volumn. Very valuable because there are many variations and proof marks. I think that maybe this could be thought for a new book by Jan Stills. Jan could make millions on the book.
Steve, I believe that since your artillery is a 1930's Erfurt version, it must be untra rare. Maybe out of Erfurt, Texas. The fact that none of the serial numbers match means that someone went through great pains and artistery to make sure that no number matches. Some research is necessary. Just not by me.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 09-03-2003, 02:14 PM

Big Norm was trying to say, that eRfUrTs were ONLY made during WW1.

Ed

Steve Richards · 09-03-2003, 03:13 PM

People need a sense of humor! The toggle is marked with the Erfurt crown and the number on the frame matches the numbers in both Lugers at Random and the e-books for being a 1930 commercial. I just thought that maybe with the need for cash, they might have used whatever parts were on hand to assemble ones for commercial sales.

The possibilty that someone stateside took an artillery barrel and frame and threw whatever parts were available is a likely explaination.

Edward Tinker · 09-03-2003, 03:54 PM

I'm sorry, I sold my sense of humor to buy Lugers!

Heinz · 09-03-2003, 07:37 PM

Ed, maybe a box of Wal Mart 9mm, but surely not a Luger! :-)

Steve Richards · 09-03-2003, 07:58 PM

Ed,

You have it backwards! You need a sense of humor to collect Lugers. You spend hard earned money to buy a gun that has been obsolete since at least 1911 and then sit around and quible over obscure proof marks, acceptance stamps and their locations. And don't forget those little numbers stamped all over the gun!

And if you are crazy enough, you also like Mauser broomhandles, Astra pistols, and Swiss K-31 rifles!

George Anderson · 09-03-2003, 08:08 PM

Steve, the boys are being flippant with you. I have a WWI commercial LP08 DWM 1915 with three matching mags and matching stock with holster. The pistol is superb, all matching and marked "Germany". The Germans fed the export market after WWI but maintained their learned weapon integrity. I believe that all those post WWI imports, Erfurt or DWM, were complete matching pieces.

Big Norm · 09-03-2003, 10:23 PM

Was the 1930's still the Wiemar Era? I have limited experience with the Wiemar Era guns. But the ones that I saw had matching numbers. Even if new or old parts were substituted, the old serial numbers were removed and the new numbers stamped on. My 1920's navy has an army receiver. The hinge pin, therefore, takes the small headed hinge pin instead of the navies large head. But the old numbers (if there were old numbers) were removed and matching serial numbers were punched on.

The size of the numbering stamps where not necessarily standard WW1. The parts may not necessarily have been to standard either. But the serial numbers matched. Sometimes it looks like there was a mish mash of parts thrown together. My 1920's navy mentioned above had commercial markings and no military proofs.

Sorry Steve, your 1930's artillery still looks like an American Era prototype. I hope that you enjoy shooting it though.

I often forget to hit the new topic below so sometimes I neglect to add the smiley face. The was the situation on my first post. I was just laughing too hard at myself.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 09-03-2003, 10:53 PM

Weimar, up to 1933 cuz then Adolphs gang took over <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Steve Richards · 09-04-2003, 01:09 AM

To all,

No offense was taken. I guessed everyone was just having fun, as I did in my previous post. My question was answered though.

Yes, it is a great gun to shoot and I have a repro stock and holster for it. After a couple of other purchases, I can start saving for a Thor rework of it. It has been reblued once and the mismatch of prts means it is not a collector item other than being an artillery. Keep up the humor!

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2003, 01:20 AM

and its a artillery! nuff said,

Big Norm · 09-04-2003, 10:55 AM

Yah, I was just having fun. Luger collecting and shooting is supposed to be fun.If it ain't fun then I would be doing something else like losing my money on the stock market. But I think that I may have tripped unto something while enjoying myself. Steve and others noted that they have shooters that they just plain have fun shooting. There is nothing wrong with having a mismatched luger and going to the range and shooting it. Steve has an artillery with a repro stock and holster and he enjoys it. Thats good. But maybe instead of calling his gun a shooter we should call this noble assembly of his an All American Era Luger or, in Steve's case, an All American Prototype Artillery rig. I mean, there is nothing wrong with the gun. Its still a fine gun and a great gun to shoot. Its just not a collectible Luger.

Oh well, that just my two cents worth.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 09-04-2003, 11:50 AM

Norm, it's gonna cost you more than two cents...

I think it is about time that you forked over your photo for the Rogues Gallery... you have my private email address... I am waiting! <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 09-04-2003, 04:54 PM

Hmmm four hours have passed and no email from Norm... come on big guy... cough up that pic!

Steve Richards · 09-07-2003, 01:29 AM

All this made me get out the LP08, Lugers at Random and Gerards Luger Producers.

The serial number places it in the middle of the range for LP08 1914 model by Erfurt.

The frame has the following markings:

4 digit S/N 96XX without a letter.
The front of the grip strap has what at first appear to be indistinct cross hatching. A 10X loupe show them to be several incomplete rows of dashes running the length of the strap.
There also looks like what could be lettering that was machined out. It also could just be some random machine marks. I cannot tell.
The front of the trigger guard has an Erfurt crown over a symbol that I cannot make out but may be a combined RC.

The barrel and receiver assembly has the following marks:
The left front of the receiver has a post 1920 nitro proof (#28 in Lugers at Random).
The right front is marked "Germany".
The barrel has the same nitro proof and a perfectly aligned single strike witness mark.
The left side of the receiver also has a post 1920 nitro proof stamp.
The projection on the bottom of the receiver has a circled N on it. To the left of the projection is a V and to the right is an O as you look at it upside down with the barrel pointing away from you.

It has a rear sight that goes up to 8 on its scale. The front sight is a typical Luger sight with no fine adjustment screw.

The front toggle link has an Erfurt crown over the word Erfurt.

The safety is stamped Gesichert.

It seems to match page 185 in Lugers at Random for a 1920 Artillery Commercial.

All in all, it is an interesting gun and most importantly, it is MY artillery.

Doubs · 09-07-2003, 12:02 PM

Steve, it sounds very much like a post-war "1920" commercial rework of a 1914 Erfurt Artillery. From your description of the non-adjustable front sight, it's my guess that the barrel/receiver is either a late war (1917 or 1918) DWM that has had the proofs and date scrubbed OR possibly a new war surplus (left over parts) barrel/receiver with Erfurt parts (toggle train, frame). There are other possibilities but those are the most likely.

Big Norm · 09-08-2003, 02:53 PM

John,
I am trying to contact the police department, as we speak, to get the RECENT AND ORIGINAL Rouges Gallery photo. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> I gotta get to a pay phone first. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> There I go getting goofy again. I'll try to find a good picture and snail mail it to you. You won't really recognize me because I sleep with a coat hanger in my mouth so my smile usually hides my face.

Big Norm

09-02-2003, 08:13 PM	#1
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Commercial artillery My artillery is an Erfurt 1930's comercial. My question is was it common for these to be assembled from mixed serial numbered parts. It has almost no matching numbers. That would not happen if a few parts break and are replaced. It is more like someone just went to parts bins and randomly grabbed numbered parts. Is this common on these models?

09-03-2003, 02:14 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Big Norm was trying to say, that eRfUrTs were ONLY made during WW1. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-03-2003, 03:54 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I'm sorry, I sold my sense of humor to buy Lugers! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-03-2003, 10:53 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Weimar, up to 1933 cuz then Adolphs gang took over <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-04-2003, 01:20 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	and its a artillery! nuff said, __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-02-2003, 08:50 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Maybe someone made it from parts here in the USA? Lots of people want an Arty? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-03-2003, 01:52 PM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Its an American Era rare prototype covering the approximate years 1960 thru 2003. A long production run of small volumn. Very valuable because there are many variations and proof marks. I think that maybe this could be thought for a new book by Jan Stills. Jan could make millions on the book. Steve, I believe that since your artillery is a 1930's Erfurt version, it must be untra rare. Maybe out of Erfurt, Texas. The fact that none of the serial numbers match means that someone went through great pains and artistery to make sure that no number matches. Some research is necessary. Just not by me. Big Norm

09-03-2003, 03:13 PM	#5
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	People need a sense of humor! The toggle is marked with the Erfurt crown and the number on the frame matches the numbers in both Lugers at Random and the e-books for being a 1930 commercial. I just thought that maybe with the need for cash, they might have used whatever parts were on hand to assemble ones for commercial sales. The possibilty that someone stateside took an artillery barrel and frame and threw whatever parts were available is a likely explaination.

09-03-2003, 07:37 PM	#7
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Ed, maybe a box of Wal Mart 9mm, but surely not a Luger! :-)

09-03-2003, 07:58 PM	#8
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, You have it backwards! You need a sense of humor to collect Lugers. You spend hard earned money to buy a gun that has been obsolete since at least 1911 and then sit around and quible over obscure proof marks, acceptance stamps and their locations. And don't forget those little numbers stamped all over the gun! And if you are crazy enough, you also like Mauser broomhandles, Astra pistols, and Swiss K-31 rifles!

09-03-2003, 08:08 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Steve, the boys are being flippant with you. I have a WWI commercial LP08 DWM 1915 with three matching mags and matching stock with holster. The pistol is superb, all matching and marked "Germany". The Germans fed the export market after WWI but maintained their learned weapon integrity. I believe that all those post WWI imports, Erfurt or DWM, were complete matching pieces.

09-03-2003, 10:23 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Was the 1930's still the Wiemar Era? I have limited experience with the Wiemar Era guns. But the ones that I saw had matching numbers. Even if new or old parts were substituted, the old serial numbers were removed and the new numbers stamped on. My 1920's navy has an army receiver. The hinge pin, therefore, takes the small headed hinge pin instead of the navies large head. But the old numbers (if there were old numbers) were removed and matching serial numbers were punched on. The size of the numbering stamps where not necessarily standard WW1. The parts may not necessarily have been to standard either. But the serial numbers matched. Sometimes it looks like there was a mish mash of parts thrown together. My 1920's navy mentioned above had commercial markings and no military proofs. Sorry Steve, your 1930's artillery still looks like an American Era prototype. I hope that you enjoy shooting it though. I often forget to hit the new topic below so sometimes I neglect to add the smiley face. The was the situation on my first post. I was just laughing too hard at myself. Big Norm

09-04-2003, 01:09 AM	#12
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To all, No offense was taken. I guessed everyone was just having fun, as I did in my previous post. My question was answered though. Yes, it is a great gun to shoot and I have a repro stock and holster for it. After a couple of other purchases, I can start saving for a Thor rework of it. It has been reblued once and the mismatch of prts means it is not a collector item other than being an artillery. Keep up the humor!

09-04-2003, 10:55 AM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Yah, I was just having fun. Luger collecting and shooting is supposed to be fun.If it ain't fun then I would be doing something else like losing my money on the stock market. But I think that I may have tripped unto something while enjoying myself. Steve and others noted that they have shooters that they just plain have fun shooting. There is nothing wrong with having a mismatched luger and going to the range and shooting it. Steve has an artillery with a repro stock and holster and he enjoys it. Thats good. But maybe instead of calling his gun a shooter we should call this noble assembly of his an All American Era Luger or, in Steve's case, an All American Prototype Artillery rig. I mean, there is nothing wrong with the gun. Its still a fine gun and a great gun to shoot. Its just not a collectible Luger. Oh well, that just my two cents worth. Big Norm

09-04-2003, 11:50 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Norm, it's gonna cost you more than two cents... I think it is about time that you forked over your photo for the Rogues Gallery... you have my private email address... I am waiting! <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-04-2003, 04:54 PM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hmmm four hours have passed and no email from Norm... come on big guy... cough up that pic! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-07-2003, 01:29 AM	#17
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	All this made me get out the LP08, Lugers at Random and Gerards Luger Producers. The serial number places it in the middle of the range for LP08 1914 model by Erfurt. The frame has the following markings: 4 digit S/N 96XX without a letter. The front of the grip strap has what at first appear to be indistinct cross hatching. A 10X loupe show them to be several incomplete rows of dashes running the length of the strap. There also looks like what could be lettering that was machined out. It also could just be some random machine marks. I cannot tell. The front of the trigger guard has an Erfurt crown over a symbol that I cannot make out but may be a combined RC. The barrel and receiver assembly has the following marks: The left front of the receiver has a post 1920 nitro proof (#28 in Lugers at Random). The right front is marked "Germany". The barrel has the same nitro proof and a perfectly aligned single strike witness mark. The left side of the receiver also has a post 1920 nitro proof stamp. The projection on the bottom of the receiver has a circled N on it. To the left of the projection is a V and to the right is an O as you look at it upside down with the barrel pointing away from you. It has a rear sight that goes up to 8 on its scale. The front sight is a typical Luger sight with no fine adjustment screw. The front toggle link has an Erfurt crown over the word Erfurt. The safety is stamped Gesichert. It seems to match page 185 in Lugers at Random for a 1920 Artillery Commercial. All in all, it is an interesting gun and most importantly, it is MY artillery.

09-07-2003, 12:02 PM	#18
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,618 Times in 527 Posts	Steve, it sounds very much like a post-war "1920" commercial rework of a 1914 Erfurt Artillery. From your description of the non-adjustable front sight, it's my guess that the barrel/receiver is either a late war (1917 or 1918) DWM that has had the proofs and date scrubbed OR possibly a new war surplus (left over parts) barrel/receiver with Erfurt parts (toggle train, frame). There are other possibilities but those are the most likely.

09-08-2003, 02:53 PM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, I am trying to contact the police department, as we speak, to get the RECENT AND ORIGINAL Rouges Gallery photo. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> I gotta get to a pay phone first. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> There I go getting goofy again. I'll try to find a good picture and snail mail it to you. You won't really recognize me because I sleep with a coat hanger in my mouth so my smile usually hides my face. Big Norm