Two Lugers

LuckyLuke · 10-01-2003, 10:55 AM

Hello! This is my first post there.

I have a chance to buy one or two Lugers:

1.:Pistole 08 DWM 1916, condition is described as good,but side of slide is pitted. No 7796, 96 repeated on several parts. pistol all black ( from pic, didnÃ?Â´t see it for real yet ), wood grips with proof. I am willing to mail the pics.

2.:Pistole 08 Erfurt 1913, described as good, looks really good! All parts black ( left side a longish part may be yellow?? ). No 7077, 77 repeated several times. 4 proof marks right slide side, one proof mark above the first one. Barrel 7077 again, 883 under and proof mark above that.

Holsters original and repro might be acquired, too. Prices quoted seem rather steep, given that 08 prices are lower here in Europe than in the US. Reason is more Lugers and more stringent gun laws. One can hardly collect several specimens, usually only the best of every kind is kept.

There is a C 96 in top condition, too, expensive, has a rather short barrel. No. 684190. 7.62 cal.

I wonder if somebody on this forum might give me a clue about worth, scarcity, what to look for; any info appreciated. In short: to buy or not to buy. Momentarily I have only one place for a gun free, could sell one ( two? ) modern guns.

Thanks in advance, Hermann

John Sabato · 10-01-2003, 12:05 PM

LuckyLuke,

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

I am fairly certain that the The 1913 Erfurt is the more rare of the two guns and from your description it sounds like it is in better condition. Other may feel free to comment on this supposition...

The value of the gun in Europe has no relationship to the value of the same type gun in the USA... Depending on original condition and the accompanying orignial accessories this gun might be worth anywhere from $400 to $1400... or more.

Post photographs here or email the photos to me lugerforum@yahoo.com and I will post them for you so that others might offer an opinion. We should see closeup and clear focus photos of the top and both sides of each gun. There is a 180K filesize limit if you post them yourself, but you can send them to me at any size and I will adjust them to the appropriate size and post them.

Ron Wood · 10-01-2003, 12:20 PM

LuckyLuke

John's advice is very good and his price range is accurate. If the Erfurt has not been refinished, it is an excellent find and quite desirable as a collectable Luger. Pictures will be very helpful in evaluating it.

LuckyLuke · 10-02-2003, 01:30 AM

Thanks! IÃ?Â´m trying to send the pics, but I need an email address, in private message I canÃ?Â´t paste them in.

I will look about that refinishing, that black just looks too good ( on paper ).

Regards, Hermann

John Sabato · 10-02-2003, 09:43 AM

the email address was listed above:

lugerforum@yahoo.com

LuckyLuke · 10-02-2003, 10:03 AM

Hi John!

I just sent you pics. I told the owner I would be interested in the cheapest, because IÃ?Â´m on a budget ( the Erfurt 1913 ).

As I asked the owner about refinishing, he told me:"If I remember correctly, I think one was refinished or redone, CanÃ?Â´t remember which one."

He has 2 C96Ã?Â´s, 3 Lugers ( one WW II, he says not so good ).

???

Looking forward to see the gun next week.

Good shooting, Hermann

LuckyLuke · 10-05-2003, 01:26 PM

I will meet this guy tomorrow evening. I examined carefully the pics, and looked around a lot at this forum ( and others ).

My questions:

A: from when on should a 08 have a magazine safety or lack thereof? It seems to have none.

B: from when on should a Luger have a sear safety, what kind of, or lack thereof? What is a Schiwi safety? What use is a sear safety?

How does one disassemble until firing pin, how to look for wear, what about fluted bolts?, and should I change the pin or bolt to another design just for some rounds ( I am willing to reload the ammo myself. I wanted never again to reload 9 mm, since those cases are so $&%Ã??*# small ).

A 1913 Erfurt should have strawed parts. But only the longish part along the right hand side of the gun looks so. Takedown lever and mag release look blue.

Should such a piece given weak ammo, be safe to shoot for 50 rounds a year? Best care guaranteed.

If carefully reblued is it a shooter or still collectible?

Thanks in advance, Hermann

LuckyLuke · 10-05-2003, 02:27 PM

Forget the part about disassembly.

http://www.gunmanuals.ch/manuals02.htm

Hermann

Edward Tinker · 10-05-2003, 03:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LuckyLuke:
My questions:

A: from when on should a 08 have a magazine safety or lack thereof? It seems to have none.

B: from when on should a Luger have a sear safety, what kind of, or lack thereof? What is a Schiwi safety? What use is a sear safety?

<hr /></blockquote>Only Weimar, then Nazi area Police Guns will have a Magazine or Sear Safety. If it has either, then it was re-done (possibly reblued, but not necessiarily) by Weimar Police armories. Normal Army / Navy's will NOT have either of these safeties.

Ed

LuckyLuke · 10-06-2003, 02:53 PM

I just handled the guns in question.:

The Mauser C 96 is a Bolo and is beautiful!! Only he wants Ã¢?Â¬ 1100 and German dealers sell them for Ã¢?Â¬ 550!

The 1913 Erfurt is matching numbers, fine piece, all works, but: grips are terrible and scratched. Ejector is beaurifully strawed, but gun has an "X" forward on left slide side. Could this mean a Russian reimport?

The frame ( and barrel as same colour? ) have been reblued, the inside looking through the ejection opening is blued ( feed ramp, e.g. ) The inside of the mag well is the same grey colour as the outside - ??? The trigger and safety are blue. The mag release from inside the frame is bright orange in strong light!! ?? But general condition is more like a Swiss watch: all works smooth!

The 1916 DWM is not so fine outside, but is not blued on feed ramp. I forgot: there is hardly a mark at the Erfurt on the back frame, so gun seems to be only cycled by hand since reblue. Price for the DWM is too much for me, gun is not good enough for that price.

What shall I do:

Ask him the price for a S 42 1938 matching numbers but outside worn shooter he has, if I get more places on my weapon permit?

Wait until he knows he paid too much for the guns in the first place and then try to get the 1913 Erfurt for under Ã¢?Â¬ 450, lets say Ã¢?Â¬ 350? Or kick my ass because I should have got the gun???

Try to get the Bolo for Ã¢?Â¬ 500 when he does not sell it in some years?

Look for a T Series Hi Power?

Start drinking instead of gun collecting ( I get 40% there, not possible with gun collecting )

Regards, Hermann

Big Norm · 10-06-2003, 03:41 PM

LuckyLuke,
welcome to the Lugerforum! If you hang around here long enough you will see that there are many different kinds of people here that are interested in Lugers. Some people only collect and do some occasional shooting. Others just want something to go to the shooting range with and have no interest in collecting them. Then there all the different kinds of Luger lovers in between. Before getting involved too heavily in buying Lugers, you should determine what kind on Luger lover that YOU are.

If you are only interested in going to the range and shooting, then your Lugers are perfectly good for what you want to do. Then price is more important than quality.

If you are a collector, then patience in your search for the perfect weapon is very important. Luger collecting is very simular to collecting coins, stamps, paper money and so forth. Condition becomes very important. Cost is still important because some sellers have their prices very high. Knowlege about prices in your country is manditory. Sometimes prices on ANYTHING becomes regional, even in the USA. Sometimes you have to analyse the seller. Is he trying to get rid of the gun or does he want his price and is willing to wait to get it? Opportunity favors an educated mind.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 10-06-2003, 09:24 PM

Big Norm is right, although the drinking aspect "can" be cheaper than guns!!

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ed

Big Norm · 10-07-2003, 02:25 AM

I sometimes get real surprised at the regionality of Luger prices in America. A long discussion could be had over price differences and Luger availability in different states. I am sure that the same discussion could be had about different countries in Europe.

I can't wait to get my house cleaned up so I can hop in my motorhome and hit some of these gun shows in other states. So far, I have only checked out Michigan and Ohio. I was real tempted to check in with Pete at the last Reno, NV show. My brother told me that the Pemona, Cal. show has moved to Texas. That could be fun. So could the Tulsa, OK show. Oh! Too many shows on my wish list.
Big Norm

Lugerdoc · 10-07-2003, 10:59 AM

Norm, The next big (3500 tables) Tulsa show is this coming weekend. It's been my experience that regional price difference on most guns are a thing of the past with the advent of the internet and nationwide gun publications. The major price differences that I've noted, are between the nationwide dealers with mailing list, who understandably are in no hurry to sell their choice items, and the non-dealer or long gun collector who has taken one of these "discusting pistols" in trade or acquired with other guns that he wants. Admittedly, these orphan pistols, have usually changed hands at shows, long before the public arrives. Tom

10-01-2003, 10:55 AM	#1
LuckyLuke Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Middle Europe Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Two Lugers Hello! This is my first post there. I have a chance to buy one or two Lugers: 1.:Pistole 08 DWM 1916, condition is described as good,but side of slide is pitted. No 7796, 96 repeated on several parts. pistol all black ( from pic, didnÃ?Â´t see it for real yet ), wood grips with proof. I am willing to mail the pics. 2.:Pistole 08 Erfurt 1913, described as good, looks really good! All parts black ( left side a longish part may be yellow?? ). No 7077, 77 repeated several times. 4 proof marks right slide side, one proof mark above the first one. Barrel 7077 again, 883 under and proof mark above that. Holsters original and repro might be acquired, too. Prices quoted seem rather steep, given that 08 prices are lower here in Europe than in the US. Reason is more Lugers and more stringent gun laws. One can hardly collect several specimens, usually only the best of every kind is kept. There is a C 96 in top condition, too, expensive, has a rather short barrel. No. 684190. 7.62 cal. I wonder if somebody on this forum might give me a clue about worth, scarcity, what to look for; any info appreciated. In short: to buy or not to buy. Momentarily I have only one place for a gun free, could sell one ( two? ) modern guns. Thanks in advance, Hermann

10-01-2003, 12:05 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	LuckyLuke, Welcome to the Lugerforum. I am fairly certain that the The 1913 Erfurt is the more rare of the two guns and from your description it sounds like it is in better condition. Other may feel free to comment on this supposition... The value of the gun in Europe has no relationship to the value of the same type gun in the USA... Depending on original condition and the accompanying orignial accessories this gun might be worth anywhere from $400 to $1400... or more. Post photographs here or email the photos to me lugerforum@yahoo.com and I will post them for you so that others might offer an opinion. We should see closeup and clear focus photos of the top and both sides of each gun. There is a 180K filesize limit if you post them yourself, but you can send them to me at any size and I will adjust them to the appropriate size and post them. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-01-2003, 12:20 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	LuckyLuke John's advice is very good and his price range is accurate. If the Erfurt has not been refinished, it is an excellent find and quite desirable as a collectable Luger. Pictures will be very helpful in evaluating it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2003, 09:43 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	the email address was listed above: lugerforum@yahoo.com __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-05-2003, 03:31 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by LuckyLuke: <strong>My questions: A: from when on should a 08 have a magazine safety or lack thereof? It seems to have none. B: from when on should a Luger have a sear safety, what kind of, or lack thereof? What is a Schiwi safety? What use is a sear safety? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Only Weimar, then Nazi area Police Guns will have a Magazine or Sear Safety. If it has either, then it was re-done (possibly reblued, but not necessiarily) by Weimar Police armories. Normal Army / Navy's will NOT have either of these safeties. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-02-2003, 01:30 AM	#4
LuckyLuke Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Middle Europe Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks! IÃ?Â´m trying to send the pics, but I need an email address, in private message I canÃ?Â´t paste them in. I will look about that refinishing, that black just looks too good ( on paper ). Regards, Hermann

10-02-2003, 10:03 AM	#6
LuckyLuke Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Middle Europe Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John! I just sent you pics. I told the owner I would be interested in the cheapest, because IÃ?Â´m on a budget ( the Erfurt 1913 ). As I asked the owner about refinishing, he told me:"If I remember correctly, I think one was refinished or redone, CanÃ?Â´t remember which one." He has 2 C96Ã?Â´s, 3 Lugers ( one WW II, he says not so good ). ??? Looking forward to see the gun next week. Good shooting, Hermann

10-05-2003, 01:26 PM	#7
LuckyLuke Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Middle Europe Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will meet this guy tomorrow evening. I examined carefully the pics, and looked around a lot at this forum ( and others ). My questions: A: from when on should a 08 have a magazine safety or lack thereof? It seems to have none. B: from when on should a Luger have a sear safety, what kind of, or lack thereof? What is a Schiwi safety? What use is a sear safety? How does one disassemble until firing pin, how to look for wear, what about fluted bolts?, and should I change the pin or bolt to another design just for some rounds ( I am willing to reload the ammo myself. I wanted never again to reload 9 mm, since those cases are so $&%Ã??*# small ). A 1913 Erfurt should have strawed parts. But only the longish part along the right hand side of the gun looks so. Takedown lever and mag release look blue. Should such a piece given weak ammo, be safe to shoot for 50 rounds a year? Best care guaranteed. If carefully reblued is it a shooter or still collectible? Thanks in advance, Hermann

10-05-2003, 02:27 PM	#8
LuckyLuke Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Middle Europe Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Forget the part about disassembly. http://www.gunmanuals.ch/manuals02.htm Hermann

10-06-2003, 02:53 PM	#10
LuckyLuke Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Middle Europe Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just handled the guns in question.: The Mauser C 96 is a Bolo and is beautiful!! Only he wants Ã¢?Â¬ 1100 and German dealers sell them for Ã¢?Â¬ 550! The 1913 Erfurt is matching numbers, fine piece, all works, but: grips are terrible and scratched. Ejector is beaurifully strawed, but gun has an "X" forward on left slide side. Could this mean a Russian reimport? The frame ( and barrel as same colour? ) have been reblued, the inside looking through the ejection opening is blued ( feed ramp, e.g. ) The inside of the mag well is the same grey colour as the outside - ??? The trigger and safety are blue. The mag release from inside the frame is bright orange in strong light!! ?? But general condition is more like a Swiss watch: all works smooth! The 1916 DWM is not so fine outside, but is not blued on feed ramp. I forgot: there is hardly a mark at the Erfurt on the back frame, so gun seems to be only cycled by hand since reblue. Price for the DWM is too much for me, gun is not good enough for that price. What shall I do: Ask him the price for a S 42 1938 matching numbers but outside worn shooter he has, if I get more places on my weapon permit? Wait until he knows he paid too much for the guns in the first place and then try to get the 1913 Erfurt for under Ã¢?Â¬ 450, lets say Ã¢?Â¬ 350? Or kick my ass because I should have got the gun??? Try to get the Bolo for Ã¢?Â¬ 500 when he does not sell it in some years? Look for a T Series Hi Power? Start drinking instead of gun collecting ( I get 40% there, not possible with gun collecting ) Regards, Hermann

10-06-2003, 03:41 PM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	LuckyLuke, welcome to the Lugerforum! If you hang around here long enough you will see that there are many different kinds of people here that are interested in Lugers. Some people only collect and do some occasional shooting. Others just want something to go to the shooting range with and have no interest in collecting them. Then there all the different kinds of Luger lovers in between. Before getting involved too heavily in buying Lugers, you should determine what kind on Luger lover that YOU are. If you are only interested in going to the range and shooting, then your Lugers are perfectly good for what you want to do. Then price is more important than quality. If you are a collector, then patience in your search for the perfect weapon is very important. Luger collecting is very simular to collecting coins, stamps, paper money and so forth. Condition becomes very important. Cost is still important because some sellers have their prices very high. Knowlege about prices in your country is manditory. Sometimes prices on ANYTHING becomes regional, even in the USA. Sometimes you have to analyse the seller. Is he trying to get rid of the gun or does he want his price and is willing to wait to get it? Opportunity favors an educated mind. Big Norm

10-06-2003, 09:24 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Big Norm is right, although the drinking aspect "can" be cheaper than guns!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-07-2003, 02:25 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I sometimes get real surprised at the regionality of Luger prices in America. A long discussion could be had over price differences and Luger availability in different states. I am sure that the same discussion could be had about different countries in Europe. I can't wait to get my house cleaned up so I can hop in my motorhome and hit some of these gun shows in other states. So far, I have only checked out Michigan and Ohio. I was real tempted to check in with Pete at the last Reno, NV show. My brother told me that the Pemona, Cal. show has moved to Texas. That could be fun. So could the Tulsa, OK show. Oh! Too many shows on my wish list. Big Norm

10-07-2003, 10:59 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Norm, The next big (3500 tables) Tulsa show is this coming weekend. It's been my experience that regional price difference on most guns are a thing of the past with the advent of the internet and nationwide gun publications. The major price differences that I've noted, are between the nationwide dealers with mailing list, who understandably are in no hurry to sell their choice items, and the non-dealer or long gun collector who has taken one of these "discusting pistols" in trade or acquired with other guns that he wants. Admittedly, these orphan pistols, have usually changed hands at shows, long before the public arrives. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

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