Left Over Parts...

Pete Ebbink · 09-06-2002, 05:32 PM

During the message thread about Dr. Fisher's 1914 q Erfurt, there was quite a lengthy discussion whether a gun manufacturer would leave unused parts just lying around the factory floor for years, possibly to be used later.

In John Walter's book, The Luger Book, 1988 reprint, on page 198; Mr. Walter does cite such a situation with BKIW during the 1920's and later.

I quote from page 198 :

" When BKIW had recommenced Parabellum production in 1923, a considerable variety of barrel-lengths was offered even though the German market was still supposedly restricted to 7.65 mm calibre and barrels less than 10 cm long. Thus, post-1923 pistols will be encountered with barrels between 92 and 400 mm. Those measuring 200 mm or less had fixed sights, while long patterns had the adjustable tangent-leaf sights associated with the Langen Pistole 08 - many thousands of which remained in stock, sufficient to permit Mauser to sell some to Siam and Persia as late as 1936. "

I do realize this example of the going-ons only at DWM/BKIW may or may not have relevance to what was going on at Erfurt during WWI days...just a bit of info. some might not remember in their readings...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Edward Tinker · 09-06-2002, 05:50 PM

On the same vein Pete, the Vickers Lugers were made from DWM parts left over from WW1. They sold approximately enough parts for 6,000 guns (not 10,000 as I incorrectly remembered). So how many spare parts were sitting around?

I know that in manufacturing waiting on one part to build 1,000 guns is far more costly than to have extra parts in bins laying around.

MauserLugers · 09-06-2002, 07:47 PM

Hi Ed,
I have a very nice Vickers and I see no evidence of it being made from left over WWI parts, but I do not know this variation at all. I always heard that DWM supplied the parts, but I never heard who actually finished them, DWM or Vickers. Perhaps you could share more information on this little known variation. BTW, mine was never re-barreled and has no date of rework on the barrel. Also, if they were from left over WWI parts, where did they get the grip safety frames, or did they make the frames or cut them? I don't think they just had 10,000 grip safety's laying, do you? Good collecting!

Hi Pete,
I like to read all the references I can, but I'm not buying that about left over parts from WWI or before being used by Mauser on commercial contracts 20 to 30 years later in 1936. I'm sure some left over parts did exist, but in my opinion a lot of the Lugers reworked in the 20's were make not from left over parts, but from dis-assembled parts. I do not feel that there was anywhere close to that amount of left over in stock new parts. Just my opinion. Good collecting!

Edward Tinker · 09-06-2002, 08:04 PM

Hi Bill, hope your summer work is done? I have heard the stories about Vickers over the year, but the ref I am refering to is the Dutch Luger by Martens.

I will paraphrase some of this,

As DWM was forbidden to deliver 9mm after WW1, the Dutch East Indies Army found another supplier in the form of Vickers. Through a Dutch rep of Vickers, 6,000 were ordered in Dec 1919 and delivered 2 years later. Vickers are basically similar to pre 1914 deliveries. Front toggle link carries the words Vickers LTD, instead of DWM, while barrel, breechblock, toggle links and frame have english proof marks. ...Finish is notably inferior to the DWM psitols. (pg 132).

Pg 80. ...December 20, 1918, manufacture was stopped (due to cancelling of all contracts). ...in 1919, several DWM factories resumed production, this time largely of peacetime articles.
Pg 81... one of the directors Ing Holl found the way to deliver these pistols to the dutch... DWM delivered all necessary parts for the M11 pistols in the white to Vickers, with a few machines and gauges for minor oeprations. Vickers finished the parts and assembled and proofed the pistols and by doing so, became the maker. ...Holl was quite proud of the fact that he had circumvented the Versailles Treaty and had also managed to dispose of a fairly large quantity of parts left over from war-time production.

So, that is where I remembered the info, 6,000 not 10,000, I knew that, just old timers fingers.

Bill, mine also has the original barrel, correctly marked, the toggle says DWM instead of Vickers but is otherwise marked corectly. Hard to say with Dutch Indies guns, played with hard, and they rearsenalled them many times on the islands. (All from what I've read, I'm a paper tiger as we used to say in the Army)

09-06-2002, 05:32 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Left Over Parts... During the message thread about Dr. Fisher's 1914 q Erfurt, there was quite a lengthy discussion whether a gun manufacturer would leave unused parts just lying around the factory floor for years, possibly to be used later. In John Walter's book, The Luger Book, 1988 reprint, on page 198; Mr. Walter does cite such a situation with BKIW during the 1920's and later. I quote from page 198 : " When BKIW had recommenced Parabellum production in 1923, a considerable variety of barrel-lengths was offered even though the German market was still supposedly restricted to 7.65 mm calibre and barrels less than 10 cm long. Thus, post-1923 pistols will be encountered with barrels between 92 and 400 mm. Those measuring 200 mm or less had fixed sights, while long patterns had the adjustable tangent-leaf sights associated with the Langen Pistole 08 - many thousands of which remained in stock, sufficient to permit Mauser to sell some to Siam and Persia as late as 1936. " I do realize this example of the going-ons only at DWM/BKIW may or may not have relevance to what was going on at Erfurt during WWI days...just a bit of info. some might not remember in their readings... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-06-2002, 05:50 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	On the same vein Pete, the Vickers Lugers were made from DWM parts left over from WW1. They sold approximately enough parts for 6,000 guns (not 10,000 as I incorrectly remembered). So how many spare parts were sitting around? I know that in manufacturing waiting on one part to build 1,000 guns is far more costly than to have extra parts in bins laying around. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-06-2002, 08:04 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	Hi Bill, hope your summer work is done? I have heard the stories about Vickers over the year, but the ref I am refering to is the Dutch Luger by Martens. I will paraphrase some of this, As DWM was forbidden to deliver 9mm after WW1, the Dutch East Indies Army found another supplier in the form of Vickers. Through a Dutch rep of Vickers, 6,000 were ordered in Dec 1919 and delivered 2 years later. Vickers are basically similar to pre 1914 deliveries. Front toggle link carries the words Vickers LTD, instead of DWM, while barrel, breechblock, toggle links and frame have english proof marks. ...Finish is notably inferior to the DWM psitols. (pg 132). Pg 80. ...December 20, 1918, manufacture was stopped (due to cancelling of all contracts). ...in 1919, several DWM factories resumed production, this time largely of peacetime articles. Pg 81... one of the directors Ing Holl found the way to deliver these pistols to the dutch... DWM delivered all necessary parts for the M11 pistols in the white to Vickers, with a few machines and gauges for minor oeprations. Vickers finished the parts and assembled and proofed the pistols and by doing so, became the maker. ...Holl was quite proud of the fact that he had circumvented the Versailles Treaty and had also managed to dispose of a fairly large quantity of parts left over from war-time production. So, that is where I remembered the info, 6,000 not 10,000, I knew that, just old timers fingers. Bill, mine also has the original barrel, correctly marked, the toggle says DWM instead of Vickers but is otherwise marked corectly. Hard to say with Dutch Indies guns, played with hard, and they rearsenalled them many times on the islands. (All from what I've read, I'm a paper tiger as we used to say in the Army) __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

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09-06-2002, 07:47 PM	#3
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Ed, I have a very nice Vickers and I see no evidence of it being made from left over WWI parts, but I do not know this variation at all. I always heard that DWM supplied the parts, but I never heard who actually finished them, DWM or Vickers. Perhaps you could share more information on this little known variation. BTW, mine was never re-barreled and has no date of rework on the barrel. Also, if they were from left over WWI parts, where did they get the grip safety frames, or did they make the frames or cut them? I don't think they just had 10,000 grip safety's laying, do you? Good collecting! Hi Pete, I like to read all the references I can, but I'm not buying that about left over parts from WWI or before being used by Mauser on commercial contracts 20 to 30 years later in 1936. I'm sure some left over parts did exist, but in my opinion a lot of the Lugers reworked in the 20's were make not from left over parts, but from dis-assembled parts. I do not feel that there was anywhere close to that amount of left over in stock new parts. Just my opinion. Good collecting!