"J" Suffix Question....

Pete Ebbink · 05-21-2003, 11:51 PM

In the 1986 edition of John Walther's book, "The Luger Book", on page 125; Walter states that "...the letter 'j' was not used as a suffix letter...".

Jan Still in his "3rd. Reich Lugers" book on page 16 also indicates j was "Not Used"...

What is the current thinking in regards to j suffices...? Were they used or not ?

If not used, what is the speculation about why the Germans skipped the suffix "j"...?

If not, our proof marks sheets in the Technical Information section on this Forum might need to be edited to delete reference to the j suffix. But I think these suffix charts came from a work by the late Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz. So was Mr. GÃ?Â¶rtz wrong on this subject ?

As an interesting side note, Walter also states on page 125 that gun numbers went up to 10,000 (not 9,999) before starting over with a suffix added...

I recall a previous LF discussion about whether serial numbered "10000" guns are correct or not...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 05-22-2003, 12:19 AM

Pete, I have wondered about this also, I know I was sent a "J" for the suffix page I have. The owner believed it was real, but if so, it is very rare...

Also, I think the 10,000 is the truth, but I haven't seen very many of either 9,999 or 10,000

Frank · 05-22-2003, 01:17 AM

Pete, there is at least one J-Block Luger!! Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, Page 76 shows a J-Block 1917 Erfurt. He further states "This is the only j-suffix block serial number Luger observed by the author. ("i" and "j" are interchangeable; the "j" was usually not used to avoid confusion)"

Hope this helps!!

Jim Keenan · 05-22-2003, 01:23 AM

Hi, guys,

The J was not used because it really did not exist. In old German, the I and J were the same letter, and even by the time of the Luger, there was not a clear distinction between them either in the typeface (in Fraktur) or in pronunciation. The German J today is not pronounced like the English J (as in "jug"), it is pronounced like Y, a letter German does not use. So the German word for hunter, Jaeger, is pronounced like Yaeger, and the famous pilot's last name surely was originally Jaeger or Iaeger.

(I am using "ae" in lieu of the umlaut "a"; in spite of several attempts, I have not been able to get the umlaut to work.)

Jim

Pete Ebbink · 05-22-2003, 11:36 AM

Thanks Frank and Jim for the great info...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

RockinWR · 05-23-2003, 01:47 AM

Pete,
* Jim's post has been the prevailing explaination offered for the "missing Luger j block" examples. It may very well be correct.
* However, another "j" block 1917 Erfurt P.08 showed up, complete with pictures, in Jan Still's Ctrl Pwrs & Axis Pistols Forum. Thread was by Shelly entitled " 'J' suffix serial number" around 12/29/02. A 73xx j example. Hope the digitals are still there.
* Also, another respected (AutoMag), Erfurt S/N hunter reported a 1916 Erfurt in the "j" block.
* "j" block's may be questionable for P.08's; but, a number of P.38's & M98k's, employing the "J" suffix, have been verified. Reference Buxton, Vol.I & R. Law's "Backbone....M98k". We certainly don't see Mauser Military P.08's with a "j" suffix though as none are yet reported.
* Anyway, IMHO, schools not out yet on this interesting question. As we've learned, when it comes to P.08's, "Never say Never"!!
Bob

Edward Tinker · 05-23-2003, 02:13 AM

The J suffix is also on my webpage on suffixes (I don't remember if it was Shelly's or anothers) @

http://users.palouse.com/ttinker/Suffixes.htm

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 05-23-2003, 04:44 AM

The 1910 instruction dealing with the serial# suffixes--actually a note at the end--specifies only that the suffixes be applied starting with a (and their size). There is no requirement to skip j (GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans, "German Small Arms Markings", p. 114).

--Dwight

Sgt Art · 05-23-2003, 12:08 PM

As a side note, The Marine Corps does not have a Company J. A regiment is composed of three battalions each with four rifle (infantry) companies. The 1st Battalion (Bn) is A, B, C, D the 2nd Bn is E, F, G, H and the 3rd Bn is I, K, L, M. In the phonetic alphabet it's Alpha, Bravo, Charlie,...Hotel, India, Lima and Mike.

J would be Juliet and that may be the reason it's skipped. I've never heard a reason why.

Nothing to do with Lugers, but an odd coincidence.

Pete Ebbink · 05-23-2003, 12:17 PM

REALLY GOOD STUFF, GUYS !!!

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 05-23-2003, 12:50 PM

Just slightly <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> The U.S. military phonetic alphabet does include the letter "J" and IS pronounced "Juliet"

This letter is not excluded from voice message traffic and is used for long haul High Frequency Radio voice communications where static plays a significant role the reliability factor for message traffic. This system is even used for command and control messages...

From one who spent the last two years of a 20 year military career wearing headphones listening to static and copying down flash messages in support of our own WMD...and praying that each message was only a drill... and I have the hearing loss to prove it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Jim Keenan · 05-23-2003, 09:31 PM

Go to this forum to look at the old German alphabet. Notice the "missing" letters. No one needed to tell anyone to "skip" the J; it wasn't there.

http://www.mun.ca/rels/morav/pics/tutor/mscript2.html

There is a further explanation at this location:

http://members.cox.net/leshopper/exprgesc.pdf

Note the paragraph about the alphabet reforms in the 1930's under Hitler, when J was officially made part of the alphabet just in time to be used on some late Lugers and P.38's. Now does anyone want to ask why they "skipped" the Y also? Or why the English alphabet "skips" Cyrillic letters?

Jim

Navystv · 05-24-2003, 02:15 PM

Oscar Kilo Jim; but I don't understand why you say "they "skipped" the Y also".
I don't know if this could help, but my K98 made by Mauser (code 42) in 1940 has the letter y after s/n.
M.

Navy · 05-24-2003, 06:38 PM

Under the Army regimental system, like the Marines mentioned earlier in the thread, there was no J company, battery or troop.

Tom A.

Sgt Art · 05-24-2003, 06:39 PM

John, were those ZULU messages? I was a field radio opr and seem to recall that was the code term for a Flash message which pretty much meant "everyone else get off the net I got hot scoop".

Jim Keenan · 05-24-2003, 09:14 PM

Hi, Navystv,

The letter Y is not used in German except in foreign words; it is interesting that it would be used as a suffix.

The "ZULU" Sgt. Art is referring to indicates Flash precedence in communications. The others (in order of required speed of delivery - not importance), with their letter indicators are:

Emergency Command Prededence (ECP) Y
Flash Z
Immediate O
Priority P
Routine R

In certain communities, ECP is not used, but Critic is.

Jim

John Sabato · 05-27-2003, 10:50 AM

Sgt Art

The answer to your question is Yes.

05-21-2003, 11:51 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	"J" Suffix Question.... In the 1986 edition of John Walther's book, "The Luger Book", on page 125; Walter states that "...the letter 'j' was not used as a suffix letter...". Jan Still in his "3rd. Reich Lugers" book on page 16 also indicates j was "Not Used"... What is the current thinking in regards to j suffices...? Were they used or not ? If not used, what is the speculation about why the Germans skipped the suffix "j"...? If not, our proof marks sheets in the Technical Information section on this Forum might need to be edited to delete reference to the j suffix. But I think these suffix charts came from a work by the late Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz. So was Mr. GÃ?Â¶rtz wrong on this subject ? As an interesting side note, Walter also states on page 125 that gun numbers went up to 10,000 (not 9,999) before starting over with a suffix added... I recall a previous LF discussion about whether serial numbered "10000" guns are correct or not... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-22-2003, 12:19 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	Pete, I have wondered about this also, I know I was sent a "J" for the suffix page I have. The owner believed it was real, but if so, it is very rare... Also, I think the 10,000 is the truth, but I haven't seen very many of either 9,999 or 10,000 __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-23-2003, 02:13 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	The J suffix is also on my webpage on suffixes (I don't remember if it was Shelly's or anothers) @ http://users.palouse.com/ttinker/Suffixes.htm Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-23-2003, 12:50 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Just slightly <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> The U.S. military phonetic alphabet does include the letter "J" and IS pronounced "Juliet" This letter is not excluded from voice message traffic and is used for long haul High Frequency Radio voice communications where static plays a significant role the reliability factor for message traffic. This system is even used for command and control messages... From one who spent the last two years of a 20 year military career wearing headphones listening to static and copying down flash messages in support of our own WMD...and praying that each message was only a drill... and I have the hearing loss to prove it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-27-2003, 10:50 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Sgt Art The answer to your question is Yes. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-22-2003, 01:17 AM	#3
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Pete, there is at least one J-Block Luger!! Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, Page 76 shows a J-Block 1917 Erfurt. He further states "This is the only j-suffix block serial number Luger observed by the author. ("i" and "j" are interchangeable; the "j" was usually not used to avoid confusion)" Hope this helps!!

05-22-2003, 01:23 AM	#4
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, guys, The J was not used because it really did not exist. In old German, the I and J were the same letter, and even by the time of the Luger, there was not a clear distinction between them either in the typeface (in Fraktur) or in pronunciation. The German J today is not pronounced like the English J (as in "jug"), it is pronounced like Y, a letter German does not use. So the German word for hunter, Jaeger, is pronounced like Yaeger, and the famous pilot's last name surely was originally Jaeger or Iaeger. (I am using "ae" in lieu of the umlaut "a"; in spite of several attempts, I have not been able to get the umlaut to work.) Jim

05-22-2003, 11:36 AM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks Frank and Jim for the great info... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-23-2003, 01:47 AM	#6
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Pete, * Jim's post has been the prevailing explaination offered for the "missing Luger j block" examples. It may very well be correct. * However, another "j" block 1917 Erfurt P.08 showed up, complete with pictures, in Jan Still's Ctrl Pwrs & Axis Pistols Forum. Thread was by Shelly entitled " 'J' suffix serial number" around 12/29/02. A 73xx j example. Hope the digitals are still there. * Also, another respected (AutoMag), Erfurt S/N hunter reported a 1916 Erfurt in the "j" block. * "j" block's may be questionable for P.08's; but, a number of P.38's & M98k's, employing the "J" suffix, have been verified. Reference Buxton, Vol.I & R. Law's "Backbone....M98k". We certainly don't see Mauser Military P.08's with a "j" suffix though as none are yet reported. * Anyway, IMHO, schools not out yet on this interesting question. As we've learned, when it comes to P.08's, "Never say Never"!! Bob

05-23-2003, 04:44 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	The 1910 instruction dealing with the serial# suffixes--actually a note at the end--specifies only that the suffixes be applied starting with a (and their size). There is no requirement to skip j (GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans, "German Small Arms Markings", p. 114). --Dwight

05-23-2003, 12:08 PM	#9
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As a side note, The Marine Corps does not have a Company J. A regiment is composed of three battalions each with four rifle (infantry) companies. The 1st Battalion (Bn) is A, B, C, D the 2nd Bn is E, F, G, H and the 3rd Bn is I, K, L, M. In the phonetic alphabet it's Alpha, Bravo, Charlie,...Hotel, India, Lima and Mike. J would be Juliet and that may be the reason it's skipped. I've never heard a reason why. Nothing to do with Lugers, but an odd coincidence.

05-23-2003, 12:17 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	REALLY GOOD STUFF, GUYS !!! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-23-2003, 09:31 PM	#12
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Go to this forum to look at the old German alphabet. Notice the "missing" letters. No one needed to tell anyone to "skip" the J; it wasn't there. http://www.mun.ca/rels/morav/pics/tutor/mscript2.html There is a further explanation at this location: http://members.cox.net/leshopper/exprgesc.pdf Note the paragraph about the alphabet reforms in the 1930's under Hitler, when J was officially made part of the alphabet just in time to be used on some late Lugers and P.38's. Now does anyone want to ask why they "skipped" the Y also? Or why the English alphabet "skips" Cyrillic letters? Jim

05-24-2003, 02:15 PM	#13
Navystv User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Italy Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oscar Kilo Jim; but I don't understand why you say "they "skipped" the Y also". I don't know if this could help, but my K98 made by Mauser (code 42) in 1940 has the letter y after s/n. M.

05-24-2003, 06:38 PM	#14
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Under the Army regimental system, like the Marines mentioned earlier in the thread, there was no J company, battery or troop. Tom A.

05-24-2003, 06:39 PM	#15
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, were those ZULU messages? I was a field radio opr and seem to recall that was the code term for a Flash message which pretty much meant "everyone else get off the net I got hot scoop".

05-24-2003, 09:14 PM	#16
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, Navystv, The letter Y is not used in German except in foreign words; it is interesting that it would be used as a suffix. The "ZULU" Sgt. Art is referring to indicates Flash precedence in communications. The others (in order of required speed of delivery - not importance), with their letter indicators are: Emergency Command Prededence (ECP) Y Flash Z Immediate O Priority P Routine R In certain communities, ECP is not used, but Critic is. Jim

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