Difference in Blueing!

[cirelaw]

This I know nothing about!! What is the process of blueing and what are the differences? Does a class of lugers or manufacture use its own type or method? Has the method chaged in the 50 years? What are the tell tale sign of reblueing. Is there a litmus test? What process is the best durable and attractive and who employed it? Finally is strawing exclusivally used on lugers?~~~I ask these questions because none of my books address these important issues!~~~Eric

[ithacaartist]

Dang, Eric...but I guess inquiring minds want to know. I'll get you started, but only basic headlines. For the rest, try searching the site for each topic/question because all of this has been discussed before, albeit scattered all over the posting board. For tech stuff like this, Wikipedia is a good start. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29

Bluing is basically a thin coating of oxidized iron. It's applied in a controlled way to yield a finish that is tight and close. Since the resulting oxide sits on the surface of the steel, it protects the raw metal beneath by sealing it off from the oxygen in the air.

The colors/tones of the finish are influenced by the chemistry used to establish it. Though the processes are general, it wouldn't surprise me that different manufacturers' formulae would be slightly different in content and proportions of chemicals, thus slightly different in absolute color.

Lugers were all rust blued until '37, when Mauser, the main, remaining factory that produced them, changed to hot/salt/dip bluing process to save time and thus money.

I'd say the dip bluing is slightly more durable than rust blued finish, because it is physically thicker and therefore better able to seal the surface of the steel. Most attractive? That's in the eye of the beholder!

"Strawing" results when a piece of steel is heated to the exact temperature needed to turn the top molecules a gold-ish yellow. This color is one in the spectrum or rainbow effect the surface of metal turns when heated gradually on one end. Straw is from one of the lower temps, so that would be farthest from the heated end. Other colors include brown, "fire blue", purple, and finally black, the last being the result of heating the piece to red hot before cooling, and puts the "black" in blacksmith. Strawed small parts is not exclusive to Lugers. But I believe it would be more commonly found on early firearms and high end firearms.

[cirelaw]

Dave great stuff!Thank You! You not only know the history but also the presentation. Yes I own the books, maybe to many! You explained the topic completely in 20 lines instead of 20 pages. I invite those who lived the history, the written definitions and first hand knowledge to share it. Some answers are still not complete. I learned in law school over 30 year ago both that the question and the answer is equally important. It was referred to as the 'Socratic' method! Your explanation is concise and you covered all the related issues as well. TKS Eric... I would invite those who may have some questions or issues to post them and take advantage of members to assist in our common knowlege and common sence! Its allot cheaper than making a mistake!We can all share the knowlege! Thanks again our Luger Heros~~~~ Eric

[mrerick]

Eric, you also asked about detecting re-bluing...

The processes of bluing involve preparing the steel surface, oxidizing the surface and then "carding" or polishing the surface to become more smooth and bright.

The oxides created by the various bluing processes (slow rusting in a humid atmosphere; fast salt chemical change) are black in color. Other forms of iron oxide are red in color (the common rust we see on things left out in the moisture over time). There is always moisture in the air, and red oxide forms slowly over the years even on steel surfaces that have been blued.

An original bluing will be under the control of the single gun maker. The color tone of the blued steel will be more consistent in it's original finish. (There are, of course, inconsistencies when military demand made the factory hurry up, especially on salt chemically blued guns). The metal edges will be sharp and not carded and polished away on an original finish. In rust blued guns, there will be surfaces left in the white without any bluing (some of the pins and the interior rails on a rust blued Luger are typically in the white, as is the muzzle).

It took a great deal of skill to card and polish the blued surface of a firearm properly. These were among the highest skilled (and likely paid) positions in the manufacturing process.

So, an original gun will have more uniform appearance; sharp surfaces and a mix of black and red oxide visible deeply in the surface reflecting the age of the gun since finishing. Areas that should be in the white will be.

Marc

[cirelaw]

Marc, you really adressed this issue. Years ago someone suggested that a reblue smells like chemicals and there was a marker like the one used to spot counterfeit currencys. Can reblues be so fine using simular methods to even fool the experts? I've known Ted forever and his skills are fantastic! ~~~~Thank You Both!

[mrerick]

I can't attest to a different odor. In fact, I can't detect any odor in the metal other than the lubricant and preservatives I use...

A few years ago, I purchased a copy of an old book, The Art of the Faker. It mainly addresses faking artwork, but is broad enough to cover other collectables. It's discussion of the psychology and motivation for faking things is quite interesting.

As we're all familiar with Ted's outstanding restoration work and his ethical approach to properly documenting restored firearms, we can appreciate that the skill and application of quite a bit of labor can result in very high quality results that could be hard to detect.

The problem is that there are those with skills and motivation but without the ethics whose objective is to deceive. Thankfully, very few people have complete knowledge of Luger variations and the fakers make mistakes that can be detected by those with enough experience. Sharing that experience is one of the highest values of this forum.

[cirelaw]

I think its wonderful that these issues are coming to light. I'm happy these subjects and misconceptions are finally being brought up and disclosed by those with actual facts and long time experiance like yourself! Theres no room for luger gossip or emotions. Every post is a written history that will live long beyond the scrivener. Our best attempt for accuracy is essential. I admit I'm a luger junky!~!

[ithacaartist]

I'll add a bit here to Marc's comments. A couple of the first things I learned, right here on this forum--about how to spot a re-blue. Marc is correct about the lines and edges being straight and sharp. In fact, it's pretty easy to spot a suspect blue job, even in some pics, if the image shows rounded edges or wavy-looking surfaces. As Marc mentioned, some parts should not be blued. The first areas to check are inside surfaces of the rails, which should be in the white for rust blued guns. Another 'white" to check for is the top end of the tiny pin that holds in the central toggle axle; the end of this pin is visible on the top of the left toggle knob, and it should look like a little white dot. The toggle links were not yet assembled when originally finished at the factory. When assembled later, an un-blued pin was used. These areas are often neglected by the uninformed refinisher. I'm not sure about whether a period armorer's work would be as detailed as it was at the factory, but I'm thinking not particularly.

Another way to find clues to a suspected re-blue is to check the surfaces under strong magnification. One can see if the pistol's finish has been done over pits, damage, wear, etc that one would not find on anew gun. With enough magnification, one is able to observe the signs of bead blasting. The entire surface will be covered with tiny peen marks where the millions of glass beads have hit the surface, deformed it with a small crater as they bounce off. These are visible even down into the recesses of the proofs and other stampings, and a total give-away for a re-finish. You asked about halos a while ago, and their presence, or lack thereof, is telling. With practice, it's sometimes possible to discern a fake halo--one that was added to boost the illusion of authenticity/originality. I've seem some right here on the forum that looked chemically created.

All stampings/impressions applied to the pistol after the texture of the surface was established should generally display a ridge/rim of displaced steel that rises above flush. You've struck a piece of steel with a chisel? Same results, like a crater on the moon in miniature.

Further, if a pistol that looks pristine sports a set of number-matching grips that themselves appear to have a lot of wear/dirt/experience, that's another red flag.

With the WWII Lugers Mauser produced after hot dip bluing was phased in, in 1937, it's not quite so easy. The pins and inner surfaces usually white in rust blued guns will all be properly blued, as the parts were totally immersed for the process.

I hope this is coherent, and that if I've missed/mistaken anything, the brothers/sisters will help this post out!

[cirelaw]

I am truly impressed!! You even addressed the little spot on the toggle which can be a dead give away!! I had to read it three times just to obsorb it all! I amagine living in upstate New York cleanses the mind and the heartl! I would encourage others with good ole luger experiance to join in!!! This is knowlege not found in hundred dollar books but from the minds of decades of passion and truly a part of we all need to share!~~~Eric

[alvin]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

because none of my books address these important issues!

Before internet, even Gale Morgan restored pistol could have wrong finish on small parts, e.g. supposed strawed trigger, he fire-blued it. The reason... B&W pictures on publications filtered out many details, and no book has text description. He probably made a guess on finish based on the finish of more commonly seen variations.

After internet, lots of things have changed. Everyone made some progress.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by alvin

Before internet, even Gale Morgan restored pistol could have wrong finish on small parts, e.g. supposed strawed trigger, he fire-blued it. The reason... B&W pictures on publications filtered out many details, and no book has text description. He probably made a guess on finish based on the finish of more commonly seen variations.

I don't know of any variation that would have originally sported a fire-blued trigger, but I think I know what you mean about B&W v. color pics.

Originally Posted by cirelaw

I amagine living in upstate New York cleanses the mind and the heartl! I would encourage others with good ole luger experiance to join in!!! This is knowlege not found in hundred dollar books but from the minds of decades of passion and truly a part of we all need to share!~~~Eric

Eric,

I think I've successfully managed to avoid most of the mind-cleansing attributes of Upstate NY! However, my love and appreciation of Lugers is pure!

[alvin]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

I don't know of any variation that would have originally sported a fire-blued trigger, but I think I know what you mean about B&W v. color pics.

For Luger, no fire-blued trigger. For Mauser, fire-blued trigger is commonly seen.

[cirelaw]

Dave I had to ask, 'Woodstock'?

[ithacaartist]

Nope, but I did see the movie the next year. There is a lag in time for the effects of such phenomena to reach Northern NY, from which I originate. "The 60s" hadn't quiet reached there before I left, and it was kinda over everywhere else. I think I might have caught up with some of the concepts...

[John Sabato]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

... but I think I know what you mean about B&W v. color pics.

Dave if it weren't for your B&W avatar, and your obvious "maturity", I would have told you to go look up B&W photos on the internet!

My oldest grandson (20) serving in the Army in Japan at the moment, revealed to me that he didn't know what "B&W television" meant not too long ago... When I told him that the images contained no color, he was shocked because it was all he has ever known...talk about feeling OLD!

[cirelaw]

I Dream of Jeannie was the last B&W, She was a 'Hottie" , http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058815/trivia