.38 ACP Broomhandle Problems, Help!

TomIAm · 10-06-2010, 04:54 AM

I am the proud new owner of a M-30 Broom, which a previous owner has had relined and chambered to .38 ACP (Note NOT .380 ACP)! I replaced the recoil and main spring with a Wolff kit and cleaned and lubed it. I noticed that the forward portion of the firing pin was slightly bent, so I carefully tapped it straight, and reassembled the weapon with the old firing pin spring. I pulled the bullets from a box of .38 Super ammo (exact same dimensions as a .38 ACP, but much hotter load), and reloaded the cases with 5.1 gr of Unique under a 115 gr Montana Gold JRN at an OAL of 1.260 in. So far, so good.
It shot OK, but I had several jams. I think the extractor is worn, as the jams were mostly due to the fired case failing to clear the chamber, and the extractor claw feels somewhat worn, (although I don't have another Broom to compare it to). While the primers were only slightly flattened, they did have a very large dent in them, far deeper than it should be (they were not blown through, nor was there any sign of leakage around the primer).
So, will someone please tell me how to properly fit a firing pin spring? How far should the pin protrude when the hammer is pressed tightly to it? The original spring seems to have been reamed out or filed where it screws onto the firing pin, that is, the cross-section of the spring wire for the first 1/8 inch or so isn't round, it's been slightly flattened. Is that correct? Should I just shorten the firing pin?
Finally, I also think some of my jamming problems are due to the rounds being too long. I bought some 90gr JHP bullets, and I'm thinking of going with 4.8 gr of Bullseye under the 90 grainers and reducing the cartridge AOL to 1.125 in. According to the .38 super reloading chart, that should be well under 17,000 CUP. I read somewhere that the max pressure for a .38 ACP is 23,000 CUP, so I should be safe (this pressure level is also well under that of a 9mm Luger, which the Broom is obviously designed to take).
What say the experts? Where should I go for a new extractor? Help!

Karl · 10-06-2010, 08:53 PM

Tom,

Replacement extractors are availble from Tom Heller - Lugerdoc on the Forum. They are reasonably good quality, although I had to gently bend mine for a proper fit. He probably has firing pins as well and it has been recommended to also replace the bolt stop for safety - Tom has them.
For the rest you are probably on your own. I have never heard of a .38 Auto C-96. As I understand, the original .30 Mauser round is relatively hot and it could be that the failure to eject is due to a mild load - the bolt not completing full cycle. You might consider re-installing the springs that came with the gun - the Wolff spring kit is not for .38 Auto and who knows how the original springs might have been tuned for this cartridge. The C-96 is an inherently dangerous gun and you should NOT regard my casual comments as expert advise. Take every measure to ensure safety.
KFS

alanint · 10-06-2010, 10:24 PM

I also seem to remember that the .38 Super has a rebated rim versus the flush rim of the original .30 caliber. A little less for the extractor to get hold of?

Edward Tinker · 10-07-2010, 06:53 AM

I am pretty sure it is 38 acp and NOT 38 super (acp); I don't think a borrm could handle 39 super?

But, thats just the feeling I have?

Ed

TomIAm · 10-08-2010, 12:26 AM

Karl - Good point about the Wolff springs not being tuned for the .38 ACP, I hadn't thought about that. When I shot it with the original springs, the bolt stayed back and would not cycle at all, so that's why I replaced the springs. I'll try Lugerdoc for the extractor, thanks!

Alanint - both the .38 ACP and the .38 Super are actually semi-rimmed, not rebated. The rim diameter is .012 bigger than the base diameter. Still not much to grab, especially with a worn extractor.

Edward - Whoever re-lined and re-chambered it also very neatly stamped "38ACP" on the right-hand chamber flat. I would never try .38 Super loads in it, although fairly hot .38 Super loads do not have that much of a pressure difference over hot, heavy 9 mm loads.

I still need to know how to properly install a firing pin spring in this thing. I think I can figure out a load without eating the bolt or other unplesant things, but I have to do something about the giant dimples in the primers. How far is the firing pin supposed to protrude when pressed forward?

Karl · 10-08-2010, 06:28 PM

Tom,

Not sure what you mean by "giant dimples." Could you post a photo? I just looked at my C-96: pulled the bolt back and pressed the flat back of the bolt against a hard, flat surface - pushing the firing pin forward. With the firing pin flush with the back of the bolt, the firing pin is still slightly recessed behind the bolt head, perhaps a 64th of an inch. Obviously the inertia of the firing pin is necessary to strike the primer.

I never paid much attention to the firing pin marks on spent ammo from the C-96, however, this was an early design for modern ammo. I know that shotguns from the same general period have much larger firing pins than modern shotguns. I shoot an old black powder hammergun reproofed for nitro and the firing pin dents are huge compared to a modern shotgun. Could you be misinterpreting "normal" based on your familiarity with modern firearms? I suggest this because the most modern handgun I own was made in 1918.

You have an interesting C-96 and I hope you can post photos. KFS

TomIAm · 10-11-2010, 12:36 AM

Karl,
When I did what you did, the firing pin protruded at least 1/16". My question is: do I fix this with a new spring, or do I shorten the firing pin itself. I am going to start a new thread in the repairs and restorations section, and I will post pics. Thanks for your help, please follow me over.

Steve Richards · 10-13-2010, 02:02 AM

Mauser made a few model 30 pistols in a round called 9mm Mauser Export. It was almost as hot as a .357 Magnum. With a new bolt stop the gun should be good for .38ACP with that in mind. Astra also made some of theirs for 9mm Largo. I would get a reloading book or Cartridges of The World book and look up whatever information I could find on those cartridges.

Keep in mind that the gun is 70-80 years old and would reflect the metalurgy of the time. If you want to shoot hot loads, get a Ruger Blackhawk.

Unfortunaltly a couple of years back I passed on a chance to buy one in 9mm Export. I have rgretted it since.

Steve

10-06-2010, 04:54 AM	#1
TomIAm User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	.38 ACP Broomhandle Problems, Help! I am the proud new owner of a M-30 Broom, which a previous owner has had relined and chambered to .38 ACP (Note NOT .380 ACP)! I replaced the recoil and main spring with a Wolff kit and cleaned and lubed it. I noticed that the forward portion of the firing pin was slightly bent, so I carefully tapped it straight, and reassembled the weapon with the old firing pin spring. I pulled the bullets from a box of .38 Super ammo (exact same dimensions as a .38 ACP, but much hotter load), and reloaded the cases with 5.1 gr of Unique under a 115 gr Montana Gold JRN at an OAL of 1.260 in. So far, so good. It shot OK, but I had several jams. I think the extractor is worn, as the jams were mostly due to the fired case failing to clear the chamber, and the extractor claw feels somewhat worn, (although I don't have another Broom to compare it to). While the primers were only slightly flattened, they did have a very large dent in them, far deeper than it should be (they were not blown through, nor was there any sign of leakage around the primer). So, will someone please tell me how to properly fit a firing pin spring? How far should the pin protrude when the hammer is pressed tightly to it? The original spring seems to have been reamed out or filed where it screws onto the firing pin, that is, the cross-section of the spring wire for the first 1/8 inch or so isn't round, it's been slightly flattened. Is that correct? Should I just shorten the firing pin? Finally, I also think some of my jamming problems are due to the rounds being too long. I bought some 90gr JHP bullets, and I'm thinking of going with 4.8 gr of Bullseye under the 90 grainers and reducing the cartridge AOL to 1.125 in. According to the .38 super reloading chart, that should be well under 17,000 CUP. I read somewhere that the max pressure for a .38 ACP is 23,000 CUP, so I should be safe (this pressure level is also well under that of a 9mm Luger, which the Broom is obviously designed to take). What say the experts? Where should I go for a new extractor? Help!

10-06-2010, 10:24 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	I also seem to remember that the .38 Super has a rebated rim versus the flush rim of the original .30 caliber. A little less for the extractor to get hold of? Last edited by alanint; 10-07-2010 at 09:06 AM.

10-07-2010, 06:53 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I am pretty sure it is 38 acp and NOT 38 super (acp); I don't think a borrm could handle 39 super? But, thats just the feeling I have? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

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10-06-2010, 08:53 PM	#2
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 530 Thanks: 0 Thanked 280 Times in 123 Posts	Tom, Replacement extractors are availble from Tom Heller - Lugerdoc on the Forum. They are reasonably good quality, although I had to gently bend mine for a proper fit. He probably has firing pins as well and it has been recommended to also replace the bolt stop for safety - Tom has them. For the rest you are probably on your own. I have never heard of a .38 Auto C-96. As I understand, the original .30 Mauser round is relatively hot and it could be that the failure to eject is due to a mild load - the bolt not completing full cycle. You might consider re-installing the springs that came with the gun - the Wolff spring kit is not for .38 Auto and who knows how the original springs might have been tuned for this cartridge. The C-96 is an inherently dangerous gun and you should NOT regard my casual comments as expert advise. Take every measure to ensure safety. KFS

10-08-2010, 12:26 AM	#5
TomIAm User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Karl - Good point about the Wolff springs not being tuned for the .38 ACP, I hadn't thought about that. When I shot it with the original springs, the bolt stayed back and would not cycle at all, so that's why I replaced the springs. I'll try Lugerdoc for the extractor, thanks! Alanint - both the .38 ACP and the .38 Super are actually semi-rimmed, not rebated. The rim diameter is .012 bigger than the base diameter. Still not much to grab, especially with a worn extractor. Edward - Whoever re-lined and re-chambered it also very neatly stamped "38ACP" on the right-hand chamber flat. I would never try .38 Super loads in it, although fairly hot .38 Super loads do not have that much of a pressure difference over hot, heavy 9 mm loads. I still need to know how to properly install a firing pin spring in this thing. I think I can figure out a load without eating the bolt or other unplesant things, but I have to do something about the giant dimples in the primers. How far is the firing pin supposed to protrude when pressed forward?

10-08-2010, 06:28 PM	#6
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 530 Thanks: 0 Thanked 280 Times in 123 Posts	Tom, Not sure what you mean by "giant dimples." Could you post a photo? I just looked at my C-96: pulled the bolt back and pressed the flat back of the bolt against a hard, flat surface - pushing the firing pin forward. With the firing pin flush with the back of the bolt, the firing pin is still slightly recessed behind the bolt head, perhaps a 64th of an inch. Obviously the inertia of the firing pin is necessary to strike the primer. I never paid much attention to the firing pin marks on spent ammo from the C-96, however, this was an early design for modern ammo. I know that shotguns from the same general period have much larger firing pins than modern shotguns. I shoot an old black powder hammergun reproofed for nitro and the firing pin dents are huge compared to a modern shotgun. Could you be misinterpreting "normal" based on your familiarity with modern firearms? I suggest this because the most modern handgun I own was made in 1918. You have an interesting C-96 and I hope you can post photos. KFS

10-11-2010, 12:36 AM	#7
TomIAm User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Karl, When I did what you did, the firing pin protruded at least 1/16". My question is: do I fix this with a new spring, or do I shorten the firing pin itself. I am going to start a new thread in the repairs and restorations section, and I will post pics. Thanks for your help, please follow me over.

10-13-2010, 02:02 AM	#8
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Mauser made a few model 30 pistols in a round called 9mm Mauser Export. It was almost as hot as a .357 Magnum. With a new bolt stop the gun should be good for .38ACP with that in mind. Astra also made some of theirs for 9mm Largo. I would get a reloading book or Cartridges of The World book and look up whatever information I could find on those cartridges. Keep in mind that the gun is 70-80 years old and would reflect the metalurgy of the time. If you want to shoot hot loads, get a Ruger Blackhawk. Unfortunaltly a couple of years back I passed on a chance to buy one in 9mm Export. I have rgretted it since. Steve