battery problem with a 1917 p-08

Roguetek · 11-26-2007, 08:25 PM

a friend of mine brought a luger to me for service.

headstamped 1917 WWI/WWII bringback, artillery model, serial 7XXX all matching.

It wont go into battery.

User claims failure was sudden, not gradual ( "it fetched up right in the middle of shooting, no warning at all! " says the owner. )

Using this link as a reference.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/productsch...odel=3230zP-08

Inspection reveals that the bolt assembly will only go fully into battery with the firing pin in the foreward uncompressed position ( you have to pull the trigger to get it to drop into battery. )

With the firing pin charged, the breech block face stops about 0.8 mm from matching up to the chamber.

The Main spring is not factory, and appears to be 'made to fit'. It does -not- fit correctly, allowing the toggle to 'slop' almost 10mm up and down without spring tension.

While I know that a new mainspring will be required, I'm uncertain as to the rest of it. reference materiel suggests a new firing pin assembly, but I cannot find anything wrong with the old one.

Removal of the firing pin assembly (parts # 22,23,24 ) -does- allow it to slide into battery.

it would appear that the firing pin ( part #22 ) is not sliding far enough back
in the breech block ( part #17 ) when the firing pin is in the 'charged' position. the entire breechblock assembly winds up hanging up on the trigger bar ( part #7 )

Roguetek · 11-26-2007, 09:15 PM

oddly enough, this may not be an arty luger. while the slide and barrel assembly are listed as 7XXX

the frame is stamped as 2XX and has no connector on the butt for the shoulder stock

Edward Tinker · 11-26-2007, 09:23 PM

Mathew, welcome to the forum. Actually ALL lugers after 1913 had stock lugs. However, that is not quite true, but for military that is true.

I have re-read your posting twice, but I am not sure what happened, however I am not a gunsmith, so it could be going over my head. Is it still happening now?

Many times a artillery 'top' / receiver gets put onto a frame (and it might be a pre-1913 frame if no stock lug or a commercial prior to that time)

Plus, many times it is just a longer barrel, is there an artillery sight on it?

Ed

Roguetek · 11-26-2007, 09:46 PM

This particular luger has arty sights. the entire barrel, slide, breach block, and toggle have matching numbers.

the lower reciever, or frame, the only number I can find is 2XX

there are no signs of this lower -ever- having a shoulder stock lug, nor are there signs of one being removed.

THe core of the problem is that when you 'charge' the toggle, and load a shell, the breech block fails to come all the way foreward. this results in the luger being out of battery. the only way to get the breech to fully close is to pull the trigger. This seems wrong, as the breech block is roughyl .8mm out of battery when this happens.

I can provide pictures if you like.

Lugerdoc · 11-27-2007, 11:00 AM

It sounds like you just need a stronger recoil spring, unless you cannot get the toggle into battery by pushing it down. In that case someone may have install a short M1900 connecting link in the rear toggle link or if a standard PO8 one, it is damaged. TH

Roguetek · 11-27-2007, 12:16 PM

pushing on the toggle wont put it into battery. pulling the trigger drops it into battery, with about .1mm worth of headspace.

new mainspring is on order from numrich. the rest of 'frankenstein' is at the bottom of a bucket of Ed's Red in pieces. the poor thing was -filthy-

Roguetek · 11-27-2007, 12:20 PM

The part the confuses me is the serial numbers are... odd.

normally lugers are "123A" or "34F5".

This one is '7619' ( not -actual- serial, but close )

The frame is '202' ( again not acutal, but close. )

no letter on either of them.

Edward Tinker · 11-27-2007, 12:49 PM

No, those are normal luger numbers. Depending on the year, but lets take military WW1 as this discussion; every year the numbering started over, so they were marked 1,2, 3, 4 up to 9999 then supposdely 10,000 and then started over, 1a, 2a, 3a, up to 9999a, then 10000a, then 1b, 2b, 3b, up to 9999b, etc. Some years there were 180,000 lugers made, so you can see that many letters of the alphabet were used for suffixes.

However, suffixes were never stamped on the side of the receiver (or are so rare that it does not matter in this discussion).

And since you said the stock lug is not there (although it may have been expertely removed), the frame is 202, could be a really old one, or it could be with the suffix gone. Pictures are needed to see what kind of frame it is; ones without the grips on them.

The receiver is numbered correct and could be from many, many different years; if a WW1 piece, from 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917 or 1918 (I may be off on a year there, but you see the example).

Ed

BTW, there are either 5 digit serial numbers or 4 digit (or less) with or without a suffix; there are no serial numbers with a letter in between... ref 34F5

Roguetek · 11-27-2007, 01:14 PM

I will post pictures of the frame once it comes out of the bath. It's pretty nasty right now. It should be ready friday.

SIGP2101 · 11-27-2007, 01:24 PM

To me it sounds like firing pin spring is not original as well. It is probably too long and in its compressed state doesnÃ¢??t let firing pin to go all the way back where it should be sitting in charged state. Or it is something else to the same effect. Is FP original? Check other parts as well in respect to FP sitting while charged.

Roguetek · 11-27-2007, 03:45 PM

when you remove the firing pin spring, the problem persists.

The serials match the rest of the reciever.

ken d · 11-27-2007, 05:35 PM

Check the plunger in the front of the searbar. If it does not move freely
it could be your problem.

Regards
Ken D

Roguetek · 11-27-2007, 06:23 PM

plunger seems ok.

Roguetek · 11-27-2007, 06:36 PM

pulled it out of the Ed's Red, and checked it. The plunger operates smoothly, and with a light touch.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-27-2007, 07:21 PM

The pistol was working normally and suddenly has a severe malfunction. I wouldn't suspect the main spring or the fireing pin spring. After cleaning I would look over all the top cannon & bolt for a fine hairline crack. At least eliminate this as a possibility.
Jerry Burney

Roguetek · 11-29-2007, 04:45 PM

I meant over it with a glass before I put it in the tank, I'll do it again tomorrow when it comes out.

the part that confuses me, is everything seems -normal- other than the frigging firing pin assembly seeming to be .8mm too long.

Roguetek · 11-29-2007, 04:46 PM

actuall, now that I think about it. how long is the entire firing pin assembly supposed to be?

Roguetek · 11-29-2007, 05:48 PM

given that the orgional finish is -gone-, it's not much of a sin to nickle-plate it, is it? I found a guy in my home area who will nickle the whole thing for 20 bucks. not a bad deal for keeping the rust off.

Roguetek · 12-03-2007, 12:18 PM

ok, got the new mainspring...

My these things are a pain to install.

what's the trick?

Roguetek · 12-03-2007, 12:42 PM

Ok, mainspring is installed. a bit painful, but installed.

Unit still fails to go into battery.

help?

11-26-2007, 09:23 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Mathew, welcome to the forum. Actually ALL lugers after 1913 had stock lugs. However, that is not quite true, but for military that is true. I have re-read your posting twice, but I am not sure what happened, however I am not a gunsmith, so it could be going over my head. Is it still happening now? Many times a artillery 'top' / receiver gets put onto a frame (and it might be a pre-1913 frame if no stock lug or a commercial prior to that time) Plus, many times it is just a longer barrel, is there an artillery sight on it? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-27-2007, 11:00 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	It sounds like you just need a stronger recoil spring, unless you cannot get the toggle into battery by pushing it down. In that case someone may have install a short M1900 connecting link in the rear toggle link or if a standard PO8 one, it is damaged. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-27-2007, 12:49 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	No, those are normal luger numbers. Depending on the year, but lets take military WW1 as this discussion; every year the numbering started over, so they were marked 1,2, 3, 4 up to 9999 then supposdely 10,000 and then started over, 1a, 2a, 3a, up to 9999a, then 10000a, then 1b, 2b, 3b, up to 9999b, etc. Some years there were 180,000 lugers made, so you can see that many letters of the alphabet were used for suffixes. However, suffixes were never stamped on the side of the receiver (or are so rare that it does not matter in this discussion). And since you said the stock lug is not there (although it may have been expertely removed), the frame is 202, could be a really old one, or it could be with the suffix gone. Pictures are needed to see what kind of frame it is; ones without the grips on them. The receiver is numbered correct and could be from many, many different years; if a WW1 piece, from 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917 or 1918 (I may be off on a year there, but you see the example). Ed BTW, there are either 5 digit serial numbers or 4 digit (or less) with or without a suffix; there are no serial numbers with a letter in between... ref 34F5 __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-27-2007, 07:21 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	The pistol was working normally and suddenly has a severe malfunction. I wouldn't suspect the main spring or the fireing pin spring. After cleaning I would look over all the top cannon & bolt for a fine hairline crack. At least eliminate this as a possibility. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

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11-26-2007, 08:25 PM	#1
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	battery problem with a 1917 p-08 a friend of mine brought a luger to me for service. headstamped 1917 WWI/WWII bringback, artillery model, serial 7XXX all matching. It wont go into battery. User claims failure was sudden, not gradual ( "it fetched up right in the middle of shooting, no warning at all! " says the owner. ) Using this link as a reference. http://www.e-gunparts.com/productsch...odel=3230zP-08 Inspection reveals that the bolt assembly will only go fully into battery with the firing pin in the foreward uncompressed position ( you have to pull the trigger to get it to drop into battery. ) With the firing pin charged, the breech block face stops about 0.8 mm from matching up to the chamber. The Main spring is not factory, and appears to be 'made to fit'. It does -not- fit correctly, allowing the toggle to 'slop' almost 10mm up and down without spring tension. While I know that a new mainspring will be required, I'm uncertain as to the rest of it. reference materiel suggests a new firing pin assembly, but I cannot find anything wrong with the old one. Removal of the firing pin assembly (parts # 22,23,24 ) -does- allow it to slide into battery. it would appear that the firing pin ( part #22 ) is not sliding far enough back in the breech block ( part #17 ) when the firing pin is in the 'charged' position. the entire breechblock assembly winds up hanging up on the trigger bar ( part #7 )

11-26-2007, 09:15 PM	#2
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	oddly enough, this may not be an arty luger. while the slide and barrel assembly are listed as 7XXX the frame is stamped as 2XX and has no connector on the butt for the shoulder stock

11-26-2007, 09:46 PM	#4
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This particular luger has arty sights. the entire barrel, slide, breach block, and toggle have matching numbers. the lower reciever, or frame, the only number I can find is 2XX there are no signs of this lower -ever- having a shoulder stock lug, nor are there signs of one being removed. THe core of the problem is that when you 'charge' the toggle, and load a shell, the breech block fails to come all the way foreward. this results in the luger being out of battery. the only way to get the breech to fully close is to pull the trigger. This seems wrong, as the breech block is roughyl .8mm out of battery when this happens. I can provide pictures if you like.

11-27-2007, 12:16 PM	#6
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	pushing on the toggle wont put it into battery. pulling the trigger drops it into battery, with about .1mm worth of headspace. new mainspring is on order from numrich. the rest of 'frankenstein' is at the bottom of a bucket of Ed's Red in pieces. the poor thing was -filthy-

11-27-2007, 12:20 PM	#7
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The part the confuses me is the serial numbers are... odd. normally lugers are "123A" or "34F5". This one is '7619' ( not -actual- serial, but close ) The frame is '202' ( again not acutal, but close. ) no letter on either of them.

11-27-2007, 01:14 PM	#9
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will post pictures of the frame once it comes out of the bath. It's pretty nasty right now. It should be ready friday.

11-27-2007, 01:24 PM	#10
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	To me it sounds like firing pin spring is not original as well. It is probably too long and in its compressed state doesnÃ¢??t let firing pin to go all the way back where it should be sitting in charged state. Or it is something else to the same effect. Is FP original? Check other parts as well in respect to FP sitting while charged.

11-27-2007, 03:45 PM	#11
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	when you remove the firing pin spring, the problem persists. The serials match the rest of the reciever.

11-27-2007, 05:35 PM	#12
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Check the plunger in the front of the searbar. If it does not move freely it could be your problem. Regards Ken D

11-27-2007, 06:23 PM	#13
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	plunger seems ok.

11-27-2007, 06:36 PM	#14
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	pulled it out of the Ed's Red, and checked it. The plunger operates smoothly, and with a light touch.

11-29-2007, 04:45 PM	#16
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I meant over it with a glass before I put it in the tank, I'll do it again tomorrow when it comes out. the part that confuses me, is everything seems -normal- other than the frigging firing pin assembly seeming to be .8mm too long.

11-29-2007, 04:46 PM	#17
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	actuall, now that I think about it. how long is the entire firing pin assembly supposed to be?

11-29-2007, 05:48 PM	#18
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	given that the orgional finish is -gone-, it's not much of a sin to nickle-plate it, is it? I found a guy in my home area who will nickle the whole thing for 20 bucks. not a bad deal for keeping the rust off.

12-03-2007, 12:18 PM	#19
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ok, got the new mainspring... My these things are a pain to install. what's the trick?

12-03-2007, 12:42 PM	#20
Roguetek User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok, mainspring is installed. a bit painful, but installed. Unit still fails to go into battery. help?