The Semi-chrome test

Navy · 09-01-2002, 08:54 PM

All,

There is an almost infallible test to determine if a finish is new or old.
Note: I did NOT say original.

Very simply stated, the test relies on the fact that oxidation occurs to blued steel no matter what is done in the area of preserving it, short of total immersion in an anerobic environment (No O2).

Based on this, one can assume that there will be residue from oxidation that will happen in the course of time. In the case of well preserved, well maintained guns, the oxidation will be less, almost sub-microscopic, but it will be present none the less.

In the case of boosted and improved guns, the oxidation will have largely disappeared as the old finish (the vehicle containing the oxidation) has been removed. In the case of original guns or guns with very old refinishes, the oxidation will be present but probably not visible to the naked eye and difficult to pick up via loupe.

So, the solution is to swab the surface with a dab of Semi-chrome metal polish on a Q-tip.

This simple test will pick up reddish-brown traces of oxidation immediately and is a pretty good indicator of an original or at least period finish.

Yes, there are degrees of oxidation and depths of color that reveal far more than this, but as a quick and dirty acid test, this works pretty good.

If a seller won't let you pop the grips and do a small swab test, shine him on.

My zwei pfennigs,

Tom A.
to cs..soon

Soooo, the task of the collector in determining originality of the finish is to determine if surface oxidation

Herb · 09-01-2002, 09:14 PM

This sounds like a great tool to use. Does it leave a mark or some other evidence on the surface that can be detected? I would not like to do this to a dealers Luger and leave a mark that was not there before. Where is this stuff available?

Navy · 09-01-2002, 09:24 PM

After the swab, it is undectable to the unaided eye; it is uninvasive and merely "cleans" the surface of otherwise invisible oxidation residue.

There should be no objection, particularly if one is smooth in making the test.

Tom A <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Johnny Peppers · 09-02-2002, 12:47 AM

The oxidation of the old finish is what makes the Mini-Maglite so indespensible as a gunshow tool. Even an old Luger with 98% finish will have oxidation in the finish that is not visible in normal room light, and normally gunshows have terrible light. The Mini-Maglite will shine through the blue and expose the brown oxidation that has formed. A newly blued Luger will not show this oxidation. Shine the light from an angle so that you don't get glare or a reflection, and the results are absolutely scary on what appears to be a near new condition Luger.
I don't know if anyone else here attended the first MAX show which was held in St.Louis. The main exhibit room was lit with little more than twinkle lights. Bob Simpson let a friend of mine take a Luger outside to view it in daylight since the lighting was so bad.

Aaron · 09-02-2002, 01:52 AM

I believe the cleaner Tom refers to is spelled Simi-Chrome. It comes in tubes and many antique shops sell it or can tell you where to get it.

Garfield · 09-02-2002, 02:03 AM

Aaron:

Thank you for your valued input regarding the correct name of the product. It certainly was a help to me.

I should point out, Tom A has never, to my reckoning, been known to be a sticker for detail.

Edward Tinker · 09-02-2002, 02:21 AM

This is good info you guys, will copy and put it in a file to have for later.

Navy · 09-02-2002, 09:28 AM

Yo, Garfield...

Am I going to have the distinct pleasure of seeing your bearded self at MAX this month? Or is it next month, I have such a problem with details...

Tom A

Pete Ebbink · 09-02-2002, 11:20 AM

Simi-Chrome product info...

http://www.newmantools.com/simi.htm

And yes, a big luger dealer gave me this tip 5 months ago...go figure, huh ?

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

crgkstnr · 09-02-2002, 12:39 PM

Hey! that sounds like a good test for the .45 carbine.

Craig

Garfield · 09-02-2002, 01:03 PM

Tom A:

Got to skip the MAX. Looks like KC in January and SOS in Feb, or when ever it is being held.

Have a good one at the MAX.

bradsimpson · 11-01-2002, 06:19 PM

Tom,
This sounds like a good test, but I think Flitz would be better because it has no abrasives. I've used it with a brass brush to get red rust out of pits. You can definitely see the oxidation come off when you rub it on old blue.
[img]smile.gif[/img]

Navy · 11-01-2002, 07:48 PM

Hi Brad,

First of all, give my best to your dad; a true gentleman among a pack of barracudas!

The flitz approach sounds workable; I will try it on a couple of exemplars and see what happens.

Best,

Tom A.

Alain · 11-02-2002, 04:58 PM

Tom,

It is really scarry. Under the Maglite there is no more rust blue; it turns rust red...
You can see the micro pits and in case of old refinishing (a nice 1906 Swiss commercial #353xx with old (maybe arsenal)reblue )you can see where the original blue was...
Really amazing !

Thanks for this nice Q tip.

Rgds,

Alain

Navy · 11-02-2002, 09:52 PM

Alain,

A pleasure to be of some small service.

Tom A.

Big Norm · 11-03-2002, 01:47 AM

Tom,
this is great. I have some Kreighoffs that I have always wondered if they were reblued. I now have a way of determining if they have been. Personally, I would like to see this test put on the forum in some permanent place for future Lugerheads who have not found this excelllent reference.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 11-03-2002, 01:51 AM

Tom,
this is great. I have some Kreighoffs that I have always wondered if they were reblued. I now have a way of determining if they have been. Personally, I would like to see this test put on the forum in some permanent place for future Lugerheads who have not found this excelllent reference.
Big Norm

Navy · 11-03-2002, 11:12 AM

Norm,

Perhaps Doc or John will put it in the General Info folder. Its a valuable piece of info.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

wterrell · 11-03-2002, 11:42 AM

I have considered this advice for quite some spell. What concerns me is the sudden joy of being able to evaluate the finish on old pistols and the practice of applying this knowledge liberally, with no intention of buying the pistol.

Scenerio:
Ten men, armed with Simi-Chrome, enter a gun show that has 10,000 visitors. Straight to the Luger displays they go (not as a group, mind you. Let's be serious!)
The first man to cross display confirms, with authority, that the 1900 Commercial Luger with serial number 15 is authentic! After impressing all those present and giving his opinion of the value (in dollars) of the pistol, stolls on down the avenue.
The sixth man to polish and remove evidence has a hard time determining because of the scant return on his buffing efforts. He announces that the authenticity is dubious.
Man Ten rubs devotedly (for he wanted to make a bid) and finds that there is no age-old sign of rust. He smuggly tells the dealer that he is trying to hoist a fake upon the innocent public.

Your conclusion?

As for me, if any man tried to deface my merchandise, the cash will be sitting on the table, half-way between us, so that fastest hand will win the day!

Navy · 11-03-2002, 12:02 PM

All,

Obviously some finesse is involved in using this method. I generally wait until the seller is ready to take the money and then I say,
"Do you mind if I swab a small part of this piece with a cotton swab before we finish the deal?"

The swab is in a small prescription bottle already moisened with semi-chrome, which I have secreted in my pocket or Gun Show bag. I simply pull it out and then explain slowly and carefully what I am doing. I can generally tell by the facial expression whether the guy is "Knowingly" selling a boosted gun.

If he hesitates or refuses, I politely end the sales transaction and simply walk away.

I have never had a problem with this and the amount of surface to be swabbed is so insignificant that the likelyhood of two or more collectors removing ALL traces of oxidation are extremely remote...about as likely as my voting for Hillary or Hanoi Jane.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-01-2002, 08:54 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The Semi-chrome test All, There is an almost infallible test to determine if a finish is new or old. Note: I did NOT say original. Very simply stated, the test relies on the fact that oxidation occurs to blued steel no matter what is done in the area of preserving it, short of total immersion in an anerobic environment (No O2). Based on this, one can assume that there will be residue from oxidation that will happen in the course of time. In the case of well preserved, well maintained guns, the oxidation will be less, almost sub-microscopic, but it will be present none the less. In the case of boosted and improved guns, the oxidation will have largely disappeared as the old finish (the vehicle containing the oxidation) has been removed. In the case of original guns or guns with very old refinishes, the oxidation will be present but probably not visible to the naked eye and difficult to pick up via loupe. So, the solution is to swab the surface with a dab of Semi-chrome metal polish on a Q-tip. This simple test will pick up reddish-brown traces of oxidation immediately and is a pretty good indicator of an original or at least period finish. Yes, there are degrees of oxidation and depths of color that reveal far more than this, but as a quick and dirty acid test, this works pretty good. If a seller won't let you pop the grips and do a small swab test, shine him on. My zwei pfennigs, Tom A. to cs..soon Soooo, the task of the collector in determining originality of the finish is to determine if surface oxidation

09-01-2002, 09:14 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	This sounds like a great tool to use. Does it leave a mark or some other evidence on the surface that can be detected? I would not like to do this to a dealers Luger and leave a mark that was not there before. Where is this stuff available? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-02-2002, 02:21 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	This is good info you guys, will copy and put it in a file to have for later. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-03-2002, 11:42 AM	#19
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have considered this advice for quite some spell. What concerns me is the sudden joy of being able to evaluate the finish on old pistols and the practice of applying this knowledge liberally, with no intention of buying the pistol. Scenerio: Ten men, armed with Simi-Chrome, enter a gun show that has 10,000 visitors. Straight to the Luger displays they go (not as a group, mind you. Let's be serious!) The first man to cross display confirms, with authority, that the 1900 Commercial Luger with serial number 15 is authentic! After impressing all those present and giving his opinion of the value (in dollars) of the pistol, stolls on down the avenue. The sixth man to polish and remove evidence has a hard time determining because of the scant return on his buffing efforts. He announces that the authenticity is dubious. Man Ten rubs devotedly (for he wanted to make a bid) and finds that there is no age-old sign of rust. He smuggly tells the dealer that he is trying to hoist a fake upon the innocent public. Your conclusion? As for me, if any man tried to deface my merchandise, the cash will be sitting on the table, half-way between us, so that fastest hand will win the day! __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-01-2002, 09:24 PM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	After the swab, it is undectable to the unaided eye; it is uninvasive and merely "cleans" the surface of otherwise invisible oxidation residue. There should be no objection, particularly if one is smooth in making the test. Tom A <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-02-2002, 12:47 AM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The oxidation of the old finish is what makes the Mini-Maglite so indespensible as a gunshow tool. Even an old Luger with 98% finish will have oxidation in the finish that is not visible in normal room light, and normally gunshows have terrible light. The Mini-Maglite will shine through the blue and expose the brown oxidation that has formed. A newly blued Luger will not show this oxidation. Shine the light from an angle so that you don't get glare or a reflection, and the results are absolutely scary on what appears to be a near new condition Luger. I don't know if anyone else here attended the first MAX show which was held in St.Louis. The main exhibit room was lit with little more than twinkle lights. Bob Simpson let a friend of mine take a Luger outside to view it in daylight since the lighting was so bad.

09-02-2002, 01:52 AM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	I believe the cleaner Tom refers to is spelled Simi-Chrome. It comes in tubes and many antique shops sell it or can tell you where to get it.

09-02-2002, 02:03 AM	#6
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Aaron: Thank you for your valued input regarding the correct name of the product. It certainly was a help to me. I should point out, Tom A has never, to my reckoning, been known to be a sticker for detail.

09-02-2002, 09:28 AM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Yo, Garfield... Am I going to have the distinct pleasure of seeing your bearded self at MAX this month? Or is it next month, I have such a problem with details... Tom A

09-02-2002, 11:20 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Simi-Chrome product info... http://www.newmantools.com/simi.htm And yes, a big luger dealer gave me this tip 5 months ago...go figure, huh ? Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-02-2002, 12:39 PM	#10
crgkstnr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey! that sounds like a good test for the .45 carbine. Craig

09-02-2002, 01:03 PM	#11
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom A: Got to skip the MAX. Looks like KC in January and SOS in Feb, or when ever it is being held. Have a good one at the MAX.

11-01-2002, 06:19 PM	#12
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Tom, This sounds like a good test, but I think Flitz would be better because it has no abrasives. I've used it with a brass brush to get red rust out of pits. You can definitely see the oxidation come off when you rub it on old blue. [img]smile.gif[/img]

11-01-2002, 07:48 PM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Brad, First of all, give my best to your dad; a true gentleman among a pack of barracudas! The flitz approach sounds workable; I will try it on a couple of exemplars and see what happens. Best, Tom A.

11-02-2002, 04:58 PM	#14
Alain Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: france Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, It is really scarry. Under the Maglite there is no more rust blue; it turns rust red... You can see the micro pits and in case of old refinishing (a nice 1906 Swiss commercial #353xx with old (maybe arsenal)reblue )you can see where the original blue was... Really amazing ! Thanks for this nice Q tip. Rgds, Alain

11-02-2002, 09:52 PM	#15
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Alain, A pleasure to be of some small service. Tom A.

11-03-2002, 01:47 AM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, this is great. I have some Kreighoffs that I have always wondered if they were reblued. I now have a way of determining if they have been. Personally, I would like to see this test put on the forum in some permanent place for future Lugerheads who have not found this excelllent reference. Big Norm

11-03-2002, 01:51 AM	#17
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, this is great. I have some Kreighoffs that I have always wondered if they were reblued. I now have a way of determining if they have been. Personally, I would like to see this test put on the forum in some permanent place for future Lugerheads who have not found this excelllent reference. Big Norm

11-03-2002, 11:12 AM	#18
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Norm, Perhaps Doc or John will put it in the General Info folder. Its a valuable piece of info. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-03-2002, 12:02 PM	#20
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Obviously some finesse is involved in using this method. I generally wait until the seller is ready to take the money and then I say, "Do you mind if I swab a small part of this piece with a cotton swab before we finish the deal?" The swab is in a small prescription bottle already moisened with semi-chrome, which I have secreted in my pocket or Gun Show bag. I simply pull it out and then explain slowly and carefully what I am doing. I can generally tell by the facial expression whether the guy is "Knowingly" selling a boosted gun. If he hesitates or refuses, I politely end the sales transaction and simply walk away. I have never had a problem with this and the amount of surface to be swabbed is so insignificant that the likelyhood of two or more collectors removing ALL traces of oxidation are extremely remote...about as likely as my voting for Hillary or Hanoi Jane. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />