More questions please.

hermit · 09-02-2002, 07:42 PM

I have been cruising the auction sites and have come to a great deal of respect for the fellows who know so much about these pistols. The amazing variety of makes and marks will take years to learn. Anyways I came across a couple of ads that I tried to figure out which was similar to my "black widow" I was fortunate enough to luck into my first try. There were two ads for "vopo byf 41s" and refinished by east germans? There was also a "Mauser byf 41" german capture. There was also a "1940-42 with black grips" and a "ku byf 41" and finally a byf 42 black widow.
I realise this will take a big answer but I thought from my earlier posts and reading other things that the so called "widow" was a term for the byf 41s due to the black bakelite grips? What marks determine a "vopo byf 41? or the "mauser byf 41"? Finally the "KU byf 41?
Sorry the question is so big, but to try to figure this out alone would take a long time and I guess a large library. PS My local paper has an ad for a 22 luger. for $150. I gather these were made in the 60s? Is it worth that price? The ammo would be a lot cheaper!! Thanks again for your time.

Stevie · 09-03-2002, 12:29 AM

When I decided to getaGerman Luger for my WW1/WW2 pistol and revolver collection, I got out my Gun Traders Guide. It lists about 78 variations, and briefly describes markings.I also searched the web,and looked at every luger picture and artical I could find. Then I scraped up money, went to a gunshow and bought one.
Vopo I think means East German police, I saw and read an interesting forum,with pictures on this same website about KU lugers. My father had a Stoeger .22 luger, I shot the heck out it and liked it, not as much fun as a real luger.

Good luck in your search,Stevie

Stevie · 09-03-2002, 06:57 PM

Maybe some of the more enlightened members of the Forum will tell me and Hermit about black widow's. I've been told both my pistols were widow's.
Stevie

lugerholsterrepair · 09-03-2002, 10:33 PM

Gentlemen, the name Black Widow is coined on the black grips vrs wood and the lack of strawed parts on Lugers made during the wartime conditions that excluded these niceties. It is a BS term that was made up by some IDIOT to sell Lugers. It has no real meaning in determining models. Jerry Burney

Garfield · 09-04-2002, 03:21 AM

Urban Luger Legend attributes this misnomer to Ralph Shattuck.

Pete Ebbink · 09-04-2002, 09:57 AM

No argument that the term Black Widow was just a marketing phrase; with no historical provenance...

Seems like alot dealers (Shattuck, Simpson, etc.) are using it on their web-sites. Even see the term in ads in AutoMag.

Black Widows seem to command a price premium of $ 200-300 over their wooden grip brothers...so maybe it wasn't such an idiotic idea (?). But I understand the "purity" issue...

I am personally glad no one is starting to call HK's with brown grips something "catchy"...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Luke · 09-04-2002, 10:37 AM

. . . . "purity" issue?

hermit · 09-04-2002, 01:05 PM

What I meant to ask is how do you deal with all the terms involved? vopo, black widow(thought that term was for the black bakelite grips on the byf41 only? It must be a real chore to distinguish which year or model. I do have a couple of books that I have just started to read.

Herb · 09-04-2002, 01:29 PM

Hermit, a of these 'terms' are recently coined and you probably will not find them in most of the older books as they did not exist then. This forum is one of the most current sources for up to date information, if you don't know the term don't be afraid to ask for clarification, we all may learn something.

Hugh · 09-04-2002, 01:52 PM

Hey Pete,

I love your new HK (ADMIN EDIT: sorry Hugh... that <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> won't fly here-JS )! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Pete Ebbink · 09-04-2002, 04:47 PM

Hello Luke,

My "purity" comment was intended to mean luger purists...those folks that want only historically accurate/correct lugers and terminology.

I was trying to convey that the term "Black Widow" isn't a purist term...

Sort of like the terms "witness marks" versus "barrel/frame alignment thingy marks"...(Just kidding , Tom A... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] )

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> :

Carl · 09-04-2002, 05:40 PM

Gee, Garfield, all this time I thought those all black Lugers were SS and commanded premium prices.
Could those fellows have been making those stories up? No they wouldn't do that.

ken d · 09-04-2002, 06:16 PM

It Seems some of the dealers have one-upped the term "black Widow" and now advertise "gestapo" lugers. Any comment on how to identify these newly coined variations???

Ken D

Herb · 09-04-2002, 06:50 PM

Ken, where did you see those, I gotta have one in shooter grade for my collection! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> I think that those are the ones with that big 'G' stamped on the chamber.

unspellable · 09-04-2002, 09:50 PM

On my 1940 Mauser with all matching parts except for the parts that don't match there are wooden grips with something like urathane finish. Could the folks at Mauser have been experimenting with a new secret process?

Herb · 09-05-2002, 12:19 PM

Unspellable, I'm glad you brought that up, my 1916 DWM and the Simpson, both refinished, have the same thing. Both sets are serial #d (last two) to the Lugers and the finish is nearly exact on both. I have been wondering about them as the checkering on both is like new, why would a refinisher varathane them?

unspellable · 09-05-2002, 01:26 PM

Herb,

My remark about the urathane finished grips was meant to be tongue in cheek. I had actually assumed somebody put the the urathane like finish on at some later date. Why? Who knows? Now you say you have two sets of such grips matching their respective pistols. If it's a serious question, I'll leave it to those on the forum who are more knowledgable about the finer points of variations than I am.

ken d · 09-05-2002, 02:29 PM

Herb:
Rather not mention names until the "gestapos" are authenicated. I am sure many others receive the same lists. Since I have a couple of "G" stamped lugers I should have thought of the answer; now I need to find a Kriminalpolizei "K" stamped luger to complete my accumulation.
Good Hunting

Ken D

09-02-2002, 07:42 PM	#1
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More questions please. I have been cruising the auction sites and have come to a great deal of respect for the fellows who know so much about these pistols. The amazing variety of makes and marks will take years to learn. Anyways I came across a couple of ads that I tried to figure out which was similar to my "black widow" I was fortunate enough to luck into my first try. There were two ads for "vopo byf 41s" and refinished by east germans? There was also a "Mauser byf 41" german capture. There was also a "1940-42 with black grips" and a "ku byf 41" and finally a byf 42 black widow. I realise this will take a big answer but I thought from my earlier posts and reading other things that the so called "widow" was a term for the byf 41s due to the black bakelite grips? What marks determine a "vopo byf 41? or the "mauser byf 41"? Finally the "KU byf 41? Sorry the question is so big, but to try to figure this out alone would take a long time and I guess a large library. PS My local paper has an ad for a 22 luger. for $150. I gather these were made in the 60s? Is it worth that price? The ammo would be a lot cheaper!! Thanks again for your time.

09-03-2002, 10:33 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Gentlemen, the name Black Widow is coined on the black grips vrs wood and the lack of strawed parts on Lugers made during the wartime conditions that excluded these niceties. It is a BS term that was made up by some IDIOT to sell Lugers. It has no real meaning in determining models. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-04-2002, 10:37 AM	#7
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	. . . . "purity" issue? __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

09-04-2002, 01:29 PM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hermit, a of these 'terms' are recently coined and you probably will not find them in most of the older books as they did not exist then. This forum is one of the most current sources for up to date information, if you don't know the term don't be afraid to ask for clarification, we all may learn something. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-04-2002, 01:52 PM	#10
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Hey Pete, I love your new HK (ADMIN EDIT: sorry Hugh... that <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> won't fly here-JS )! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-03-2002, 12:29 AM	#2
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	When I decided to getaGerman Luger for my WW1/WW2 pistol and revolver collection, I got out my Gun Traders Guide. It lists about 78 variations, and briefly describes markings.I also searched the web,and looked at every luger picture and artical I could find. Then I scraped up money, went to a gunshow and bought one. Vopo I think means East German police, I saw and read an interesting forum,with pictures on this same website about KU lugers. My father had a Stoeger .22 luger, I shot the heck out it and liked it, not as much fun as a real luger. Good luck in your search,Stevie

09-03-2002, 06:57 PM	#3
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Maybe some of the more enlightened members of the Forum will tell me and Hermit about black widow's. I've been told both my pistols were widow's. Stevie

09-04-2002, 03:21 AM	#5
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Urban Luger Legend attributes this misnomer to Ralph Shattuck.

09-04-2002, 09:57 AM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	No argument that the term Black Widow was just a marketing phrase; with no historical provenance... Seems like alot dealers (Shattuck, Simpson, etc.) are using it on their web-sites. Even see the term in ads in AutoMag. Black Widows seem to command a price premium of $ 200-300 over their wooden grip brothers...so maybe it wasn't such an idiotic idea (?). But I understand the "purity" issue... I am personally glad no one is starting to call HK's with brown grips something "catchy"... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-04-2002, 01:05 PM	#8
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What I meant to ask is how do you deal with all the terms involved? vopo, black widow(thought that term was for the black bakelite grips on the byf41 only? It must be a real chore to distinguish which year or model. I do have a couple of books that I have just started to read.

09-04-2002, 04:47 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Luke, My "purity" comment was intended to mean luger purists...those folks that want only historically accurate/correct lugers and terminology. I was trying to convey that the term "Black Widow" isn't a purist term... Sort of like the terms "witness marks" versus "barrel/frame alignment thingy marks"...(Just kidding , Tom A... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] ) Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> :

09-04-2002, 05:40 PM	#12
Carl User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central PA Posts: 113 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Gee, Garfield, all this time I thought those all black Lugers were SS and commanded premium prices. Could those fellows have been making those stories up? No they wouldn't do that.

09-04-2002, 06:16 PM	#13
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	It Seems some of the dealers have one-upped the term "black Widow" and now advertise "gestapo" lugers. Any comment on how to identify these newly coined variations??? Ken D

09-04-2002, 06:50 PM	#14
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ken, where did you see those, I gotta have one in shooter grade for my collection! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> I think that those are the ones with that big 'G' stamped on the chamber. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-04-2002, 09:50 PM	#15
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	On my 1940 Mauser with all matching parts except for the parts that don't match there are wooden grips with something like urathane finish. Could the folks at Mauser have been experimenting with a new secret process?

09-05-2002, 12:19 PM	#16
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Unspellable, I'm glad you brought that up, my 1916 DWM and the Simpson, both refinished, have the same thing. Both sets are serial #d (last two) to the Lugers and the finish is nearly exact on both. I have been wondering about them as the checkering on both is like new, why would a refinisher varathane them? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-05-2002, 01:26 PM	#17
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Herb, My remark about the urathane finished grips was meant to be tongue in cheek. I had actually assumed somebody put the the urathane like finish on at some later date. Why? Who knows? Now you say you have two sets of such grips matching their respective pistols. If it's a serious question, I'll leave it to those on the forum who are more knowledgable about the finer points of variations than I am.

09-05-2002, 02:29 PM	#18
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Herb: Rather not mention names until the "gestapos" are authenicated. I am sure many others receive the same lists. Since I have a couple of "G" stamped lugers I should have thought of the answer; now I need to find a Kriminalpolizei "K" stamped luger to complete my accumulation. Good Hunting Ken D