Another One

[AGE]

Boy these things are addicting, although I don't know why. Picked one up at the Fort Myers gun show today. It's pretty nice but a mismatched shooter with a decent old reblue. I guess I bought it because it has a great trigger and was cheap. (Besides Christmas is coming.) As anyone who has read any of my posts knows, I am not a total newbie, but an old shooter who likes nice Lugers but won't part with the $$ for collector guns.

Now a few questions. The gun is a 4" 9 mm without a grip safety and it has a stock lug. It has no proof marks at all and the seller claimed it is a 1920 commercial. Does anyone know? There are no import marks and the safety is marked GESICHERT (all caps.). The frame serial number is 2XXX with an "h" suffix. The canon seems to have all matching numbers and a DWM toggle, but no date and I don't think it was removed. The barrel number is 2XXX with an "a" suffix.

Also the gun has a trigger bar safety, does that make it a former police gun?

The grips are good, but have beeen varnished. How can I get that off?

With the gun I received a 1964 Stoeger Arms owners manual called "The Parabellum Automatic Pistol". It has about 50 small pages and some nice pictures and diagrams.

I've got to stay away from these shows--man they're expensive.

[Dwight Gruber]

Al,

With frame/cannon combination mismatch its hard to say what it might be. Really, there are no proofs -anywhere-, not even a crown/N?? Remnants of a mag ssafety would indicate a Police gun. You didn't say there is a sear safety, is there remnants of one? Look at the overhang shelf above the sear bar, is there a small hole drilled there, or a rivet? Is the top of the side plate cut away? Are the side plate and locking bolt numbered on the visible surface, or on the edges?

Yes, gun shows just before Christmas constitute cruel and unusual temptation...

--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

Al,

I've cleaned grips and other items with paint remover. but it can be rough on them.

1920 Commercial, cool.

I like the orage smelling paint remover, takes a bit longer, but not as rough on your hands, skin or nose. Then you clean them up and put boiled linseed oil or tong oil.

[Mark A]

Be careful not to get any tong oil on your tung.

[Ron Wood]

Probably got his tang tungled around his eye-teeth and couldn't see what he was saying. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[wterrell]

Must have tingled!

[Edward Tinker]

I couldn't remember how to speler it, so should ahve just said lindseed oil [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[AGE]

Dwight,

Yes it does have an intact sear safety (I called it a trigger bar safety--I'm not familiar with these things). There is no magazine safety. The locking bolt, side plate, toggle pin, barrel, and magazine (aluminum bottom sheet metal) last two numbers match--haven't had it apart yet to check inside numbers. The number on the safety lever that pops up out of the grip frame matches the frame number.

I don't see any proofs, Germany, or import stamps. Where would a crown/N stamp be?

I've got to shoot this thing, but time is a problem right now. Soon, very soon.

[Dwight Gruber]

Al,

Curiouser and curiouser.

The Crown-over-N proof (#28 in the markings area of Technical Information, at left), if present, will be found on: the left side of the receiver; under the barrel above the serial number; on the left side of the breechblock (could be very tiny and faint). It makes a difference if the mark on the receiver is upright or "lazy", on its side (see mark #4).

Is the serial number the same on the frame and barrel except for the letter suffix? Or, are your "xxx"s hiding a difference?

It is important to know if the numbers on the trigger plate and locking bolt are on the face or the edge of the part.

When you take your Luger apart you will find, underneath the barrel/receiver, a line called a "witness mark". This is a single mark, stamped with one blow of a chisel-type tool, axially across the juncture of the barrel and receiver. Look very closely at this, preferably under magnification, and see if there is any discontinuity in the mark, anything which looks "funny", which would indicate that it has been rebarrelled.

As always, picures would be helpful.

--Dwight

[AGE]

Dwight,

There is no crown/N on the grip frame, cannon side or barrel. I'll research the inside when I can (maybe late this week)--awfully busy with Christmas honeydoos and other commitments. When I do take it apart I want to be thorough (and I plan to work on the grip varnish--I'll replace them if I can't clean them up). Maybe I'll shoot it first, my guns gotta shoot.

The side plate number is on the face. The barrel and grip frame numbers are different and suffix's are different, but both begin with 20. The main S/N on the frame has an overstamp (it isn't clear), I don't know if it is a factory boo boo or not. That's how I bought it and I'm stuck with it I guess.

The gun may not even be reblued, the inside seems to be unblued. The high points on the barrel end and side plate are worn some, but overall is maybe 80%. The strawing looks too good to be original (to me). The bore looks great, maybe too good to be 80 years old.

What does the lack of a date, Germany stamp and proofs mean? Commercial? Machined off? Or?????

[Dwight Gruber]

[quote]Originally posted by AGE:
<strong>What does the lack of a date, Germany stamp and proofs mean? Commercial? Machined off? Or?????</strong><hr></blockquote>

Indeed, that's the question which is puzzling me--at least, the no-proofs part.

Here's what can be said (note that there are a lot of conditionals, probablys, maybes here). The sear safety indicates a police rework. Since the modification involves both the cannon and the side plate, and the side plate number matches the frame, the mismatched frame and upper were mated at or before this time. Rear toggle pins were not number-stamped until 1932 (which means that originally DWMs were never so marked). Yours implies that the police conversion was probably done after that date.

Police rework included complete refinish. Police guns I have examined, the one I own, photographs I have seen, indicate that they commonly retain most of that finish--blue and straw--this is a good thing, and should cause you no concern.

The military style (surface) number stamping on the frame parts indicates that the frame is probably of military origin. The lack of the "Germany" export stamp is to be expected.

Bore condition makes me enter the territory of Wild Ass Speculation. My own examination of witness marks, common sense (these guns have been shot for 60-100 years) and Forum correspondence, suggest that even "authentic" Lugers have gone through more alteration (certainly at the service depot or armory level) than is commonly suspected. Examine your witness mark -very- carefully.

The blank chamber would be proper for a cannon/upper of Commercial origin. It is the total lack of proof marks which breaks me down and makes me cry "uncle". This condition should simply not be, and I finally reach the limit of my knowledge and experience to even speculate.

--Dwight

[AGE]

Dwight,

Thanks for your responses, I am interested (but not too obsessed) with figuring out what I have. The seller of this gun had not shot it and really didn't know too much about it.

The side plate number matches the cannon (at least the barrel), not the grip frame. I guess I wasn't too clear earlier. The part that matches the frame number is the little safety lever that pops up behind the trigger bar when you engage the safety.

As I said earlier, I will study the inside, maybe tonight since you are arousing my curiosity about this hunk of (neat) hardware.

[AGE]

More Information.

I made time to take the gun apart (much to the irritation of my wife). Anyway I learned a few more things.

There are no proof marks anywhere, also no import stamps or Germany stamps and no date. The inside of the barrel (S/N 2XXX, suffix a) is really beautiful.

Cannon Assembly--Receiver is white on the inside. I hadn't noticed before, but there is a depression at the forward left side of the receiver where my other Luger receivers have serial numbers. The receiver S/N on the outside has been ground off. The lug on the front underside of the receiver behind the witness marks has the last two digits of the barrel number. The witness marks on barrel and receiver are perfectly aligned and a zero or O is stamped on the receiver at the mark. The toggle (both pieces), bolt, toggle pin, and side plate (no inside numbers) also have the last two digits of the barrel number. THE FIRING PIN IS FLUTED AND HAS THE LAST TWO DIGITS OF THE GRIP FRAME SERIAL NUMBER. It does have the sear safety discussed before.

Magazine--Silver plated sheet metal with aluminum bottom. The four digit barrel serial number is stamped across the bottom along with a one. Also there is something that looks like the "bomb" symbol (more like a * with ears).

Grips--Old and decent, varnished or shellacked but no numbers.

Grip Frame--Inside is white, S/N is 2XXX, suffix h (different from barrel number, but overstamped or damaged and hard to read). Slight pitting under right grip. Also, LC stamped (under left grip) on lower rear corner and K (under right grip) on lower front corner. The hold open device, trigger, safety bar (that sticks up behind the trigger bar), AND FIRING PIN have the last two digits of the grip frame number.

I'm guessing from Dwight's responses that this is a Police rework of a commercial upper (evidently after 1932 based on the toggle pin numbers and magazine) and a military lower.

Any other ideas anybody? I hope it shoots.

[Dwight Gruber]

The left side of the receiver being scrubbed means that all bets are off as far as determining the origin--commercial or otherwise--of the upper. On reflection, this entire thread demonstrates the ultimate futility of trying to determine the origins of a mismatched piece, particularly one which has undergone Police rework.

It does make for an interesting puzzle, though. The exercise has been fun.

--Dwight

[AGE]

Dwight and others,

Thanks for your comments on my Frankenluger. I guess it's difficult to tell much about it. I pretty well knew it was a combination of mismatched parts, probably mostly from two guns. I had hoped that the cannon and grip frame manufacturers and the general period of manufacture might be identified.

I should have missed the canon receiver four digit serial number on the front corner sooner. It was probably rebarreled some time ago and the whole thing reblued then since there is similar holster wear on the barrel end, the sideplate high area, and the front end of the rib on the right side of the grip frame. The bluing on the whole gun is pretty good and consistent even where the receiver number has been removed so the removal was probably done before the refinishing.

There is almost no wear on the front and rear grip straps so I suppose the gun was not shot very much since it was rebarreled and refinished (that may be why the barrel is very good). I suspect the receiver number was removed to eliminate any obvious mismatch between the barrel and receiver numbers. I suppose this may have been done during the police reworking (but who knows?).

Oh well, it's still an excellent appearing shooter (if you don't carefully examine the numbers) with a great barrel, a good trigger and I only paid $475 for it.

We'll see if it shoots and, if not, there is another show in February. I can't loose much.

[AGE]

Got out to the range today. My mismatched Frankenluger shoots. The first 50 foot rested 5 shot group measured 1 1/8 inches with Wallymart Winchester ammo. Wow! The group was about 1" to the left and a couple of inches high. The great barrel and trigger pull are worth something even if this mismatched beast can't be identified. It was also totally reliable for the 50 rounds I shot with the magazine that came with it.

I'll have to get out the brass drift punch again and bang the front sight to the left a little (just like my matched 1936 Mauser shooter). Or maybe Hugh would like to try recessing a S&W revolver sight into the toggle??? With an adjustable sight and a new set of grips, this one might make a good target gun. My reworked GI target 1911s are also made up of parts from various sources and nobody sneers at them--why should they sneer at a great shooting mongrel Luger?

[Hugh]

AL,

Can't do a S&W. (yet), but I am working on mounting of the old style MMC adjustable sights. Have one done, and it ain't very purty, but I'm trying to improve. [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

[AGE]

Hugh,

I sent you an E-mail on this topic. Thanks for your interest.