Canada parts

wterrell · 10-12-2002, 11:29 AM

Gentlemen,

This post has two questions:

1. When the Canadian government declares that all handguns, not previously registered, must have the frame destroyed, why did the Canadians surrender the pistols? Why lay down to the government? What makes people comply with outrageous laws?
My question is sincere and not rhetorical. I do not understand the compliance to these laws. These pistols cannot be 'undestroyed' if the subjects should later decide that this was a bad law.

2. Should we be concerned with the Canadian restrictions on handguns forcing the salvaging of Luger parts?

It seems that the abundance of replacement parts will compromise the integrity of collectible Lugers. Authentication will be much more difficult. Shooters will become 'all matching'.

Too bad that we do not have a database containing a list is known matching Lugers and known boosted and faked pistols.

Stu · 10-12-2002, 12:06 PM

I suspect that a vast majority of Luger owners are law abiding people. As an Englishman I was bought up to obey authority figures; questioning that obedience was discouraged ! I suspect the same attitude may exist in Canada and less so in the US ? I think this is an example of the subtle cultural differences between our countries.

I almost defied the UK law when they slapped a particularly assinine restriction on shotguns, but in the end gave in. Getting caught with an illegal weapon in the UK is no joke as the resulting criminal prosecution has significant consequences.

Those who obey the law will often comply with the most offensive restrictions without a murmur. Of course the people who the laws are really aimed at will continue to ignore them anyway, generally only the innocent suffer, in my opinion.

hermit · 10-12-2002, 01:38 PM

[img]mad.gif[/img] Don't get me started Wes!! I for one; and many others refused to comply with these new laws. I am now a criminal in my own country. I cannot go huinting anymore--can't buy ammunition at the sports mart. All the Canadians that read this that screamed and hollered, then quietly sent the info to the government can--well--you know. I may end up with the federales at my door with this post, but not many topics make me angrier--except for taxes. It actually drove the black market for firearms through the roof. P.S the government just privatized the registry here to a privately owned company. Your gun ownership info is now theirs. Sorry for the rant. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

wterrell · 10-12-2002, 02:33 PM

hermit,
Selling the registry to a private firm is scarey. We can only imagine how they will recover their investment from the information. The only hope would be for a gun lobby to purchase the company that now owns the info. and slow the process to a halt.
Is there such a thing as 'Canadian Rifle Association'? You should start one if it does not exist. (As an officer of the association, it might pay you a wage worth the effort.) Any law can be reversed!

Stu,
Our privately owned press may contribute to the American character. Our 'fringe' media tends to force the mainstream to remain somewhat in the middle of the spectrum on the gun issue.
Does a 'British Rifle Association' exist? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by organizing and changing the laws more closely to the heart.

kidvett · 10-12-2002, 05:53 PM

Hi Wes,

I'll try to clarify the Canadian situation:

PROHIBITED HANDGUNS: those with barrels 105mm & less ( INCLUDES ALL 4 INCH LUGERS ) have to be DESTROYED or parts salvaged if not registered before 1995

RESTRICTED HANDGUNS: barrels of 106mm & longer...includes 4 3/4 7.65mm LUGERS...are legal to own & can be transfered [img]smile.gif[/img]

The question to/ or not to follow the LAW is a personnal one.....ANYONE convicted of a weapons charge is forbidden to posess firearms for a 5 years period.....

I do follow the LAW ( even if it,s a bad one ) and I am a Certified Weapons Verifier for the Canadian Firearms Center ( registration of firearms by citizens...)

I try to buy salvaged LUGERS ( parts guns ) and do keep track of the serial numbers involved....

Others collectors are buying as much 4 inch LUGERS they can get to sell them ASAP in the US for a fast buck....thus clearing the country of the limited pistols available to Canadian collectors....SADLY enough NO PROHIBITED CLASS 4 INCH LUGER CAN BE IMPORTED IN CANADA, PERIOD!

So, that's the sad situation around here and I hope I've helped to clarify it.....

Regards,

kidvett [img]frown.gif[/img]

wterrell · 10-12-2002, 06:56 PM

kidvett,

In the US, our government tries, every once in a while, to update its definition of 'Saturday Night Special' to be more inclusive. These are ever expanding and have to be vigorously opposed. Another is 'assault' weapons. This definition is ever evolving. The last episode involved magazine capacity.

There is nothing wrong with making the 'best' of a bad situation by salvaging parts. But the bad situation should not be allowed to exist. Where is the NFA? Are they merely a shooting club or are they involved heavily in influencing politics and policy?

As for being a Certified Weapons Verifier, I do not know the duties of this position, nor the degree of participation required before you might be considered a supporter and enforcer of the handgun restrictions.

kidvett · 10-12-2002, 11:06 PM

Hi Wes,

Private message sent to you...

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

wterrell · 10-13-2002, 09:31 AM

tacfoley,

The tragedies in the USA are trumpeted the world over. You are very well aware of the many shootings in our schooyards over the years. And you have heard the cry for the ban of handguns. The sentiment for 'responsible' legislation of handgun ownership is very strong, even within the gun community.
We can feel empathy with those who have faced the power of the state at the time of confiscation, but do not feel that the response of the gun owning British subjects is universal or inevitable.
We are aware that many a man has boasted what grand acts of revenge and recompense he would perform if his wife should ever be unfaithful to him, only to sit and cry when the sad day arrived. Our response may be the same as this poor fellow. Who knows?
We are sure that we will puzzle out the truth of the matter when the turn comes to us in the USA. Wish us pluck!

By the way, tacfoley, is the war lost?

hermit · 10-13-2002, 08:57 PM

Just to make it clear that while owning the pistol may be legal, you must get a form to take the pistol from your home to go directly to the range, then home again. Myself, and many others were fed up and also insulted that after 20 years of law abiding gun ownership we were suddenly considered potential criminals. I don't want to cause any hard feelings and these are just my views. We had a perfectly good system in place before the registration laws came out. It was the FAC the firearms aquisition certificate. It required you to record the serial number of the weapon purchased. It wasn't eforced enough I guess. My views on the subject forced me to get rid of all my weapons to avoid 5 years in jail and stop doing something I dearly loved. By the way--you can tell how much my government trusts its people by watching coverage of peaceful protests. They have armed snipers on the roofs and police in full riot gear. I guess my only choice is to move to the last country that would not yet dare to try this stuff. P.S Kidvett--if you know; what happens after jan 2003? How many firearms are actually registered at this point? I haven't kept up with what's happening lately.

Lugerdoc · 10-14-2002, 08:05 AM

I fear that the recent "Belt Way" sniper may do more hard to our gun rights, than all of the antigun legislative groups combined. Since this is happening in the NRA's backyard, I'd really like to see them actively organize some type of NRA member's watch in the area, to catch this deranged bastard. What a plus this would be to us lawful gun owners, if one of us could help put this bastard away. Tom H

Stu · 10-14-2002, 08:30 AM

I agree with Tom; the sniper problem is going to hurt us. Part of the reason I moved from the UK to the US was the freedom to shoot; how long will that continue ?

It'll be interesting to see what type of rifle the murderer is using. I saw police brandishing an AR15 style rifle on the TV but haven't seen that confirmed. It would be ironic if it turned out to be a non 'assault' type weapon; they'll still push for the ban of everything else.

Right now I beleive the gun control lobby in the US are hesitant to go after 'hunting' style rifles as the general public would reject that strongly, hence the divide and conquer approach; ten round mags, Saturday night specials, assault rifles etc.

American freedom may suffer death death by a thousand cuts.

The one difference here is that tracking gun ownership is far more difficult than it was in the UK; should a ban on handguns ever happen the pool of 'illegal' weapons then created will be staggering.

hermit · 10-14-2002, 10:07 AM

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/GO...OSTANDWILLCOST
This amounts to approximately 900 dollars for every man woman and child in Canada. I suspect now that it's privatised they will start raising fees to register substantialy. I will drop my rant on this subject now. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

kidvett · 10-15-2002, 05:55 PM

Hermit,

Private message sent...

kidvett [img]frown.gif[/img]

10-12-2002, 11:29 AM	#1
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Canada parts Gentlemen, This post has two questions: 1. When the Canadian government declares that all handguns, not previously registered, must have the frame destroyed, why did the Canadians surrender the pistols? Why lay down to the government? What makes people comply with outrageous laws? My question is sincere and not rhetorical. I do not understand the compliance to these laws. These pistols cannot be 'undestroyed' if the subjects should later decide that this was a bad law. 2. Should we be concerned with the Canadian restrictions on handguns forcing the salvaging of Luger parts? It seems that the abundance of replacement parts will compromise the integrity of collectible Lugers. Authentication will be much more difficult. Shooters will become 'all matching'. Too bad that we do not have a database containing a list is known matching Lugers and known boosted and faked pistols. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-12-2002, 02:33 PM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	hermit, Selling the registry to a private firm is scarey. We can only imagine how they will recover their investment from the information. The only hope would be for a gun lobby to purchase the company that now owns the info. and slow the process to a halt. Is there such a thing as 'Canadian Rifle Association'? You should start one if it does not exist. (As an officer of the association, it might pay you a wage worth the effort.) Any law can be reversed! Stu, Our privately owned press may contribute to the American character. Our 'fringe' media tends to force the mainstream to remain somewhat in the middle of the spectrum on the gun issue. Does a 'British Rifle Association' exist? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by organizing and changing the laws more closely to the heart. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-12-2002, 06:56 PM	#6
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	kidvett, In the US, our government tries, every once in a while, to update its definition of 'Saturday Night Special' to be more inclusive. These are ever expanding and have to be vigorously opposed. Another is 'assault' weapons. This definition is ever evolving. The last episode involved magazine capacity. There is nothing wrong with making the 'best' of a bad situation by salvaging parts. But the bad situation should not be allowed to exist. Where is the NFA? Are they merely a shooting club or are they involved heavily in influencing politics and policy? As for being a Certified Weapons Verifier, I do not know the duties of this position, nor the degree of participation required before you might be considered a supporter and enforcer of the handgun restrictions. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-13-2002, 09:31 AM	#8
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	tacfoley, The tragedies in the USA are trumpeted the world over. You are very well aware of the many shootings in our schooyards over the years. And you have heard the cry for the ban of handguns. The sentiment for 'responsible' legislation of handgun ownership is very strong, even within the gun community. We can feel empathy with those who have faced the power of the state at the time of confiscation, but do not feel that the response of the gun owning British subjects is universal or inevitable. We are aware that many a man has boasted what grand acts of revenge and recompense he would perform if his wife should ever be unfaithful to him, only to sit and cry when the sad day arrived. Our response may be the same as this poor fellow. Who knows? We are sure that we will puzzle out the truth of the matter when the turn comes to us in the USA. Wish us pluck! By the way, tacfoley, is the war lost? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-14-2002, 08:05 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	I fear that the recent "Belt Way" sniper may do more hard to our gun rights, than all of the antigun legislative groups combined. Since this is happening in the NRA's backyard, I'd really like to see them actively organize some type of NRA member's watch in the area, to catch this deranged bastard. What a plus this would be to us lawful gun owners, if one of us could help put this bastard away. Tom H __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-12-2002, 12:06 PM	#2
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I suspect that a vast majority of Luger owners are law abiding people. As an Englishman I was bought up to obey authority figures; questioning that obedience was discouraged ! I suspect the same attitude may exist in Canada and less so in the US ? I think this is an example of the subtle cultural differences between our countries. I almost defied the UK law when they slapped a particularly assinine restriction on shotguns, but in the end gave in. Getting caught with an illegal weapon in the UK is no joke as the resulting criminal prosecution has significant consequences. Those who obey the law will often comply with the most offensive restrictions without a murmur. Of course the people who the laws are really aimed at will continue to ignore them anyway, generally only the innocent suffer, in my opinion.

10-12-2002, 01:38 PM	#3
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[img]mad.gif[/img] Don't get me started Wes!! I for one; and many others refused to comply with these new laws. I am now a criminal in my own country. I cannot go huinting anymore--can't buy ammunition at the sports mart. All the Canadians that read this that screamed and hollered, then quietly sent the info to the government can--well--you know. I may end up with the federales at my door with this post, but not many topics make me angrier--except for taxes. It actually drove the black market for firearms through the roof. P.S the government just privatized the registry here to a privately owned company. Your gun ownership info is now theirs. Sorry for the rant. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

10-12-2002, 05:53 PM	#5
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Wes, I'll try to clarify the Canadian situation: PROHIBITED HANDGUNS: those with barrels 105mm & less ( INCLUDES ALL 4 INCH LUGERS ) have to be DESTROYED or parts salvaged if not registered before 1995 RESTRICTED HANDGUNS: barrels of 106mm & longer...includes 4 3/4 7.65mm LUGERS...are legal to own & can be transfered [img]smile.gif[/img] The question to/ or not to follow the LAW is a personnal one.....ANYONE convicted of a weapons charge is forbidden to posess firearms for a 5 years period..... I do follow the LAW ( even if it,s a bad one ) and I am a Certified Weapons Verifier for the Canadian Firearms Center ( registration of firearms by citizens...) I try to buy salvaged LUGERS ( parts guns ) and do keep track of the serial numbers involved.... Others collectors are buying as much 4 inch LUGERS they can get to sell them ASAP in the US for a fast buck....thus clearing the country of the limited pistols available to Canadian collectors....SADLY enough NO PROHIBITED CLASS 4 INCH LUGER CAN BE IMPORTED IN CANADA, PERIOD! So, that's the sad situation around here and I hope I've helped to clarify it..... Regards, kidvett [img]frown.gif[/img]

10-12-2002, 11:06 PM	#7
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Wes, Private message sent to you... kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

10-13-2002, 08:57 PM	#9
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just to make it clear that while owning the pistol may be legal, you must get a form to take the pistol from your home to go directly to the range, then home again. Myself, and many others were fed up and also insulted that after 20 years of law abiding gun ownership we were suddenly considered potential criminals. I don't want to cause any hard feelings and these are just my views. We had a perfectly good system in place before the registration laws came out. It was the FAC the firearms aquisition certificate. It required you to record the serial number of the weapon purchased. It wasn't eforced enough I guess. My views on the subject forced me to get rid of all my weapons to avoid 5 years in jail and stop doing something I dearly loved. By the way--you can tell how much my government trusts its people by watching coverage of peaceful protests. They have armed snipers on the roofs and police in full riot gear. I guess my only choice is to move to the last country that would not yet dare to try this stuff. P.S Kidvett--if you know; what happens after jan 2003? How many firearms are actually registered at this point? I haven't kept up with what's happening lately.

10-14-2002, 08:30 AM	#11
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I agree with Tom; the sniper problem is going to hurt us. Part of the reason I moved from the UK to the US was the freedom to shoot; how long will that continue ? It'll be interesting to see what type of rifle the murderer is using. I saw police brandishing an AR15 style rifle on the TV but haven't seen that confirmed. It would be ironic if it turned out to be a non 'assault' type weapon; they'll still push for the ban of everything else. Right now I beleive the gun control lobby in the US are hesitant to go after 'hunting' style rifles as the general public would reject that strongly, hence the divide and conquer approach; ten round mags, Saturday night specials, assault rifles etc. American freedom may suffer death death by a thousand cuts. The one difference here is that tracking gun ownership is far more difficult than it was in the UK; should a ban on handguns ever happen the pool of 'illegal' weapons then created will be staggering.

10-14-2002, 10:07 AM	#12
hermit User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: canada Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/GO...OSTANDWILLCOST This amounts to approximately 900 dollars for every man woman and child in Canada. I suspect now that it's privatised they will start raising fees to register substantialy. I will drop my rant on this subject now. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

10-15-2002, 05:55 PM	#13
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hermit, Private message sent... kidvett [img]frown.gif[/img]