Stolen? Exercise extreme caution buying guns from Internet Auctions <img BORDER="0" src='http://boar

Robert Wiggins · 04-26-2001, 01:15 PM

Excellent Cautionary note...Thanks John S (EOM)

04-26-2001, 10:05 PM

Now here is an area that I have no knowledge about at all. It seems to me that there really is no guarantee, even when buying from the major dealers, and even with unaltered serial numbers, that the gun is not stolen. Or has not been stolen in the past. Does the gov really keep serial numbers on stolen guns, and if so for how long? FGR

Matt · 04-26-2001, 10:56 PM

Stolen guns are listed on the National Crime Information Computer (NCIC) but I don't know for how long.

DAVID · 04-27-2001, 04:49 AM

It depends on the local agency. When I was an officer. I recovered a first issue chief's special from a parolee and ran the serial number. I am in Alabama. the number came back hot from LA. CA. This was in 73. The pistol had been stolen in 1968 and I was advised that LA would remove it from the NCIC and I could distroy the weapon after I got done with it as evidence in the parole revocation case. I asked them If they could identify the owner and they refused to do so as it was so long ago. Rather than distroy the weapon, it was turned over the district attorney for his use. The agency that entered the weapon is the only agency I think that can remove it from the system and it depends on that agency's rules. David

Dok · 04-27-2001, 06:59 AM

If it was OK for you to destroy it David, or to give it away (the DA), would it also have been OK for you to have kept it, or re-registered it in your name? What if it had been a Luger or other relatively rare weapon?

Dok

04-27-2001, 09:53 AM

John, In looking at the auction photos that you posted, I find it highly suspecious that this particular 20 commerical, appears to have both full military proofing on the right side of the receiver (even what may be an Erfurt crown over RC -- too small on my screen to tell for sure) and a verticle crown/N proofing on left receiver. If this rework was done at "the factory" I don't ever recall seeing both sets of proofing on the same pistol. Even if the pistol was all correct, $850 seems excessive. Anyone want a guaranteed minty 20 commerical, subject to your inspection, for $750? If so, let me know, as I have several.

John Sabato · 04-27-2001, 10:26 AM

You can rest assured that there is no consistency in data entry or removal of stolen status.

Once stolen, it remains stolen until a responsible agency proactively removes it from that status.

Computers don't forget unless they are told to forget either by direct human intervention or by programming.

-John (professional computer security consultant to the federal government by trade)

That's why registration systems are a waste of time, because the government will be no more competent at operating and maintaining them than they are at anything else. Less than perfect is a phrase that comes to mind.

-J

04-27-2001, 06:38 PM

AMEN John! I will add that I have found it very disturbing and I feel criminal, that in several(and probably all) of the largest Gun "buy back" scams that have been conducted latley, the stolen guns that were found were not returned to their rightful owners. This was even boasted about by the director of HUD (or whatever they are called this week) that hundreds of guns received in the buy back were found to be stolen and all were destroyed. Is this conduct not just as criminal and immoral as the original theft?

04-28-2001, 12:55 AM

I know this is a dumb question, but I am truly curious if anyone knows how to check if one's gun has been stolen or entered into the NCIC system? Is this automatically done when a firearm is purchased or transferd, or must it be requested? And if it must be requested, who do you ask? FGR

DAVID · 04-28-2001, 06:06 AM

NCIC information is not directly available to the public. I have usually asked a police officer I know to run the number if I have any question about the deal. Be prepared to give up the weapon and the Seller information if it comes back hot. I have had that happen twice in 35 years. Some agencies automatically run all gun sales through NCIC some dont. One time a friend of mine from Montgomery Ala. picked up a luger at the Birmingham Gun show. Being a correctional officer, he ran the number when when we got back. It came back hot. FROM MONTGOMERY!!!. The report from the agency HAD A SERIAL NUMBER THAT DID NOT INCLUDE A LETTER. HIS LUGER HAD A LETTER. He did not know who he had purchased the gun from and asked me to see what I could do. He knew about where the seller's table was at the show. I tracked the seller in Alabama down to a collector in Missisppi who had purchased the gun from Ralph Shattuck 15 years before the sale. Ralph was kind enought to give a letter on the pistol and my friend was able to keep the pistol . This link may help

stolen guns

04-26-2001, 11:34 AM	#1
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Stolen? Exercise extreme caution buying guns from Internet Auctions I feel sorry for the seller because the dealer in this case is probably completely innocent and ended up with this piece in trade because he didn't know his Lugers. Like the desk sergeant used to say after morning roll call on the series "Hill Street Blues" - "Let's be careful out there!"" regards, -John http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=1251562 http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/renumbered.jpg

04-26-2001, 01:15 PM	#2
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Stolen? Exercise extreme caution buying guns from Internet Auction Excellent Cautionary note...Thanks John S (EOM)

04-26-2001, 10:05 PM	#3
FGR Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Stolen? Exercise extreme caution buying guns from Internet Auction Now here is an area that I have no knowledge about at all. It seems to me that there really is no guarantee, even when buying from the major dealers, and even with unaltered serial numbers, that the gun is not stolen. Or has not been stolen in the past. Does the gov really keep serial numbers on stolen guns, and if so for how long? FGR

04-26-2001, 10:56 PM	#4
Matt User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 196 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Stolen? Exercise extreme caution buying guns from Internet Auction Stolen guns are listed on the National Crime Information Computer (NCIC) but I don't know for how long.

04-27-2001, 04:49 AM	#5
DAVID User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Debary, FL. Posts: 129 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Stolen? How long? records Kept It depends on the local agency. When I was an officer. I recovered a first issue chief's special from a parolee and ran the serial number. I am in Alabama. the number came back hot from LA. CA. This was in 73. The pistol had been stolen in 1968 and I was advised that LA would remove it from the NCIC and I could distroy the weapon after I got done with it as evidence in the parole revocation case. I asked them If they could identify the owner and they refused to do so as it was so long ago. Rather than distroy the weapon, it was turned over the district attorney for his use. The agency that entered the weapon is the only agency I think that can remove it from the system and it depends on that agency's rules. David

04-27-2001, 06:59 AM	#6
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hmmmm.... that raises an interesting thought... If it was OK for you to destroy it David, or to give it away (the DA), would it also have been OK for you to have kept it, or re-registered it in your name? What if it had been a Luger or other relatively rare weapon? Dok

04-27-2001, 09:53 AM	#7
tom heller Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Stolen? John, In looking at the auction photos that you posted, I find it highly suspecious that this particular 20 commerical, appears to have both full military proofing on the right side of the receiver (even what may be an Erfurt crown over RC -- too small on my screen to tell for sure) and a verticle crown/N proofing on left receiver. If this rework was done at "the factory" I don't ever recall seeing both sets of proofing on the same pistol. Even if the pistol was all correct, $850 seems excessive. Anyone want a guaranteed minty 20 commerical, subject to your inspection, for $750? If so, let me know, as I have several.

04-27-2001, 10:26 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Because use of the NCIC is dependent on local agency rules You can rest assured that there is no consistency in data entry or removal of stolen status. Once stolen, it remains stolen until a responsible agency proactively removes it from that status. Computers don't forget unless they are told to forget either by direct human intervention or by programming. -John (professional computer security consultant to the federal government by trade) That's why registration systems are a waste of time, because the government will be no more competent at operating and maintaining them than they are at anything else. Less than perfect is a phrase that comes to mind. -J

04-27-2001, 06:38 PM	#9
bcc Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Because use of the NCIC is dependent on local agency rules AMEN John! I will add that I have found it very disturbing and I feel criminal, that in several(and probably all) of the largest Gun "buy back" scams that have been conducted latley, the stolen guns that were found were not returned to their rightful owners. This was even boasted about by the director of HUD (or whatever they are called this week) that hundreds of guns received in the buy back were found to be stolen and all were destroyed. Is this conduct not just as criminal and immoral as the original theft?

04-28-2001, 12:55 AM	#10
FGR Guest Posts: n/a	Re: then how do we access NCIC data I know this is a dumb question, but I am truly curious if anyone knows how to check if one's gun has been stolen or entered into the NCIC system? Is this automatically done when a firearm is purchased or transferd, or must it be requested? And if it must be requested, who do you ask? FGR

04-28-2001, 06:06 AM	#11
DAVID User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Debary, FL. Posts: 129 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: NCIC data Long NCIC information is not directly available to the public. I have usually asked a police officer I know to run the number if I have any question about the deal. Be prepared to give up the weapon and the Seller information if it comes back hot. I have had that happen twice in 35 years. Some agencies automatically run all gun sales through NCIC some dont. One time a friend of mine from Montgomery Ala. picked up a luger at the Birmingham Gun show. Being a correctional officer, he ran the number when when we got back. It came back hot. FROM MONTGOMERY!!!. The report from the agency HAD A SERIAL NUMBER THAT DID NOT INCLUDE A LETTER. HIS LUGER HAD A LETTER. He did not know who he had purchased the gun from and asked me to see what I could do. He knew about where the seller's table was at the show. I tracked the seller in Alabama down to a collector in Missisppi who had purchased the gun from Ralph Shattuck 15 years before the sale. Ralph was kind enought to give a letter on the pistol and my friend was able to keep the pistol . This link may help stolen guns