"What mongrel did I buy" - Auction mis-match photos

Frank H. · 07-09-2004, 08:14 AM

I truly am looking forward to collecting the various great reference books out there that have been recommended to me (since I'm a newbie), but my curiousity is hard to contain re: this mis-matched, mongrel shooter I bought off of GunBroker a few weeks ago...

I bought this as just a shooter, final auction price was $605. It's obviously a mis-matched, maybe an arsenal put-together Luger, I don't know if it's an East German jobbie or an actual "done for the war effort" re-work, the receiver is marked 1913 but it has a S/42 toggle...

The numbers have been force matched (toggle for sure and maybe the sideplate, and the mag bottom looks grinded down and re-numbered to match), seems more like a military armoror force numbering rather than a "forgery" force numbering since obviously it's not a collectible...

I was just curious what you folk who know more than I might have to say about this "bought as a shooter" piece, where you think it might have been, what it's story might be since it seems to have been re-worked long ago and not for current market purposes.

When I got it a few weeks ago it had crummy aftermarket grips, and I bought "also crummy aftermarket grips" on ebay that were a bit fat on the edges and around the safety but at least had some nice grain, those are the "recent version crummy grips" on it in the photos, so disregard the grips as they are "shooter grips" as were the grips that came with this gun at least at the stage that I got posession of this gun.

Other than the grips, everything else is matching or "force matched" as is shown in the photos. I welcome all comments and thoughts re: the long walk this shooter may have been through...

Thanks in advance,

Frank H. in L.A. (Click on thumbnails for a full size image).

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Ron Smith · 07-09-2004, 08:55 AM

Frank, From what I can see. I would guess it's an Eastern block re-work.Can't quite make it out, but looks like a 1913 Erfurt receiver. Judging from what I can see of the proofs. I'm no expert,but it looks like it's been dipped. It has that tell-tale frosty dull finish. In my opinion, you did OK. I would pay that much for a decent shooter.

Not bad, Ron

George Anderson · 07-09-2004, 09:12 AM

Looks like a classic East German rework for so called "VOPO" service. If the grips it came with were brown plastic with little bull's eyes on each, they are the correct E. German grips though some VOPOs kept their original wood or bakelite grips.

Frank H. · 07-09-2004, 09:12 AM

Thanks Ron, yes, it DOES have a frosty "blue" dip-job, consistent but frosty, I think you nailed it on that.

On the underside of the barrel, there is a very "faintly" struck import mark string of characters, it's not buffed out it's just lightly struck, looks like maybe C.S.A. "xfdzWhatever" ending maybe in a N.J. maybe, it's really hard to read as small as the imprints are size wise and as lightly as it's struck.

It does seem to be a solid piece mechanically. The bore is pretty good with just a bit of pitting along some of the rifling edges. I'm wondering if I should just ignore that bit of pitting and shoot it, or JB it a bit...

Frank H.

Frank H. · 07-09-2004, 09:19 AM

Hi George, this one was in the property of someone who had had it for at least a few long years, then a quick sale to a middleman who put it up for auction on gunbroker, when I got it it had aftermarket cheapie grips that had been done in Tru-Oil or a similar surface-building varnish blend...

I figured it may well have had worse / plastic grips on it at one point, but that's the way I got it.

The "decent looking" ebay grips (shown in the photos) were only a slight upgrade, as they were fat at the edges and sloppy around the safety, "argg". But the grain is a bit nice and I don't have that much money in it.

Any other feedback is much appreciated,

Frank H.

Dwight Gruber · 07-09-2004, 09:43 AM

I think Ron has pegged the receiver, the firing proof does look more like the Erfurt eagle than the DWM eagle. Look for Erfurt inspector marks on the frame and small frame parts, they do not show up in the photographs and may indicate that the frame is not Erfurt. It could be that the receiver/barrel is the replaced part.

The magazine marked 2/1001 is an East German police magazine. You will note that the base does not really look like aluminum, it is another alloy entirely, possibly Zamak.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 07-09-2004, 10:10 AM

Frank H.

I think you did fine for a shooter... It looks nice and should serve you well for years.

RockinWR · 07-09-2004, 12:49 PM

Frank H.
* As to the barrel mark, it is likely E.C.C.S.A./Pennsauken, N.J. in 2 lines. This is the Importer's Stamp. Try a Forum search on "e.c.c.s.a." or "e.e.c.s.a". I think this has been reported before.
* I've heard of 4-5 examples so marked. All were VOPO's when imported. This stamp was initially reported on the receiver's right face aft of the Imperial acceptance stamps. Looks like it was moved to the under barrel location to be more discreet & improve the appearance of the pistol.
* Does your barrel have a DDR Crown/N on the underside indicating a fresh barrel was installed upon VOPO rework?
* Think you did great. This looks like a excellent looking shooter. Enjoy!!
* As unconventional as this may sound and if all other marks point to a DDR VOPO rework, you might consider getting a VOPO "bullseye" pair of plastic grips while they are cheap. One of these days, a VOPO may become a collector's variation since the DDR no longer exists. I believe Tom Heller has a supply of these grips.
Respectfully,
Bob

Frank H. · 07-09-2004, 06:19 PM

Many thanks to everybody for their insight and observations, and Dwight you are right that the mag base seems to not be aluminum, just like you said, thanks for all the info.

Here's a better shot of the markings:

Bob, yes, I think you guessed it exactly re: the importers mark you described, re: "E.C.C.S.A" this is a VERY faint and tiny importers imprint, it starts with just C.S.A. but I see a tiny tiny mark just ahead of that where maybe the stamp just didn't make contact but should have been eccsa. This one is all in one line, tiny tiny imprint on the bottom of the barrel.

You nailed it on the Pennsauken NJ (too light a strike to literally read, but with your "hint", yes that's it). No other import marks.

And YES, it does have a Crown/N on the underside of the barrel, you nailed that as well. Thanks for the tip on the VOPO grips, the wood perks my interest more than the 'correct' plastic VOPO ones though.

Thanks for the guidance on my "pig in a poke auction purchase"!

Frank H.

07-09-2004, 08:14 AM	#1
Frank H. User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oregon, south of Portland Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"What mongrel did I buy" - Auction mis-match photos I truly am looking forward to collecting the various great reference books out there that have been recommended to me (since I'm a newbie), but my curiousity is hard to contain re: this mis-matched, mongrel shooter I bought off of GunBroker a few weeks ago... I bought this as just a shooter, final auction price was $605. It's obviously a mis-matched, maybe an arsenal put-together Luger, I don't know if it's an East German jobbie or an actual "done for the war effort" re-work, the receiver is marked 1913 but it has a S/42 toggle... The numbers have been force matched (toggle for sure and maybe the sideplate, and the mag bottom looks grinded down and re-numbered to match), seems more like a military armoror force numbering rather than a "forgery" force numbering since obviously it's not a collectible... I was just curious what you folk who know more than I might have to say about this "bought as a shooter" piece, where you think it might have been, what it's story might be since it seems to have been re-worked long ago and not for current market purposes. When I got it a few weeks ago it had crummy aftermarket grips, and I bought "also crummy aftermarket grips" on ebay that were a bit fat on the edges and around the safety but at least had some nice grain, those are the "recent version crummy grips" on it in the photos, so disregard the grips as they are "shooter grips" as were the grips that came with this gun at least at the stage that I got posession of this gun. Other than the grips, everything else is matching or "force matched" as is shown in the photos. I welcome all comments and thoughts re: the long walk this shooter may have been through... Thanks in advance, Frank H. in L.A. (Click on thumbnails for a full size image). <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0406.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0406.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0410.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0410.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0417.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0417.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0438.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0438.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0445.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0445.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0461.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0461.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0466.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0466.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0470.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_0470.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

07-09-2004, 08:55 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Frank, From what I can see. I would guess it's an Eastern block re-work.Can't quite make it out, but looks like a 1913 Erfurt receiver. Judging from what I can see of the proofs. I'm no expert,but it looks like it's been dipped. It has that tell-tale frosty dull finish. In my opinion, you did OK. I would pay that much for a decent shooter. Not bad, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-09-2004, 10:10 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Frank H. I think you did fine for a shooter... It looks nice and should serve you well for years. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-09-2004, 09:12 AM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Looks like a classic East German rework for so called "VOPO" service. If the grips it came with were brown plastic with little bull's eyes on each, they are the correct E. German grips though some VOPOs kept their original wood or bakelite grips.

07-09-2004, 09:19 AM	#5
Frank H. User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oregon, south of Portland Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi George, this one was in the property of someone who had had it for at least a few long years, then a quick sale to a middleman who put it up for auction on gunbroker, when I got it it had aftermarket cheapie grips that had been done in Tru-Oil or a similar surface-building varnish blend... I figured it may well have had worse / plastic grips on it at one point, but that's the way I got it. The "decent looking" ebay grips (shown in the photos) were only a slight upgrade, as they were fat at the edges and sloppy around the safety, "argg". But the grain is a bit nice and I don't have that much money in it. Any other feedback is much appreciated, Frank H.

07-09-2004, 09:43 AM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	I think Ron has pegged the receiver, the firing proof does look more like the Erfurt eagle than the DWM eagle. Look for Erfurt inspector marks on the frame and small frame parts, they do not show up in the photographs and may indicate that the frame is not Erfurt. It could be that the receiver/barrel is the replaced part. The magazine marked 2/1001 is an East German police magazine. You will note that the base does not really look like aluminum, it is another alloy entirely, possibly Zamak. --Dwight

07-09-2004, 12:49 PM	#8
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Frank H. * As to the barrel mark, it is likely E.C.C.S.A./Pennsauken, N.J. in 2 lines. This is the Importer's Stamp. Try a Forum search on "e.c.c.s.a." or "e.e.c.s.a". I think this has been reported before. * I've heard of 4-5 examples so marked. All were VOPO's when imported. This stamp was initially reported on the receiver's right face aft of the Imperial acceptance stamps. Looks like it was moved to the under barrel location to be more discreet & improve the appearance of the pistol. * Does your barrel have a DDR Crown/N on the underside indicating a fresh barrel was installed upon VOPO rework? * Think you did great. This looks like a excellent looking shooter. Enjoy!! * As unconventional as this may sound and if all other marks point to a DDR VOPO rework, you might consider getting a VOPO "bullseye" pair of plastic grips while they are cheap. One of these days, a VOPO may become a collector's variation since the DDR no longer exists. I believe Tom Heller has a supply of these grips. Respectfully, Bob

07-09-2004, 06:19 PM	#9
Frank H. User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oregon, south of Portland Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Many thanks to everybody for their insight and observations, and Dwight you are right that the mag base seems to not be aluminum, just like you said, thanks for all the info. Here's a better shot of the markings: Bob, yes, I think you guessed it exactly re: the importers mark you described, re: "E.C.C.S.A" this is a VERY faint and tiny importers imprint, it starts with just C.S.A. but I see a tiny tiny mark just ahead of that where maybe the stamp just didn't make contact but should have been eccsa. This one is all in one line, tiny tiny imprint on the bottom of the barrel. You nailed it on the Pennsauken NJ (too light a strike to literally read, but with your "hint", yes that's it). No other import marks. And YES, it does have a Crown/N on the underside of the barrel, you nailed that as well. Thanks for the tip on the VOPO grips, the wood perks my interest more than the 'correct' plastic VOPO ones though. Thanks for the guidance on my "pig in a poke auction purchase"! Frank H.