Completely insane lugersmithing ideas, advice?

[Waschbaer]

A bit off topic, but I figured this would be the best part of the forum for gunsmithing ideas. I just purchased a really abused parabellum which I plan on running rounds through till she will run no more. My thought was: if one were to put a HELLISHLY powerful mainspring into a P08, could one then fire overpowered ammo through her, or would the steel around the chamber itself go to pieces? I'm considering building somewhat of a luger carbine, and wanted to make up a 9mm round that would actually compete as a "rifle" round.
Too crazy? Begging death or dismemberment? Or just a nifty idea? I'd like to hear your opinions.

[Thor]

Where do you live in NM? So I can "stand back" when you shoot that thing! Remembering that the round SAAMI pressure is around 35,000 psi about the same as a 357 Magnum, I sure wouldnt push it above +p level. 8 grs of Blue dot with an Artillery Luger THAT HAS A FULL Strength recoil spring is all I want, it booms like a rifle. I DONT shoot this load in Lugers with a smaller barrel. If you push the pressures, you can get allfull nasty stuff happening like blown primers, fractured breechblocks from back pressure, etc! AINT a good idea IMO, but heck, I have shot just the top off a Luger before (no frame) so dont listen to me, lol! <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Waschbaer:
<strong>Too crazy... Begging death or dismemberment?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">When I was I Hawaii we had to go to an outdoor gun range to shoot. There were always a couple of guys that hot-loaded 44 mags and 357 mags. All you are doing is trying to blow the gun apart.

Although kind of cool, it is better to have a round accurate than loud and with a hell of a flame. But maybe that is what you should gear for, a medium round with a flame like all get out?

I always look at it this way, the hot gun in your hand if it blows, it will throw hot splinters into your hand, tearing through your tendons, muscle and flesh and if unlucky, hot metal splinters into your face or eyes... Those shooting glasses may or may not stop hot blistering metal splinters...

Ed

[Thor]

Buy a 454 Casual Raging Bull and shoot in indoors, that ought to float your boat! I used to shoot full power loads from a 357 Magnum inside during bowling pin shoots, LOUD!! "What.....huh........what?"

[Waschbaer]

I get the feeling we're thinking along different lines here. I remember reading that the original carbines fired a hotter load than the standard lugers, and that these were painted black to prevent people from blowing their pistols apart. I thought with a really hefty mainspring, I could make a carbine that would actually handle hotter loads than a pistol, making it worth creating a carbine out of it. With a sixteen inch barrel and a stock, it might make a fun toy to have. I just don't see the point in making a carbine if it wont outperform a pistol. The last thing I want is to break the damn thing after putting a bunch of work into it. --Tom.
Postscriptum: I'm not a fan of modern pistols, I only shoot Imperial German guns, so the whole 454 casul and other magnum gun ideas really really don't appeal to me.

[Edward Tinker]

The carbines were loaded hotter, but not much hotter.

The black cartridges were "proof" cartridges, meant to test a luger, but not for normal use.

And Tom, I think we are getting onto the same sheet of music. What you need is to reload ammo that takes alonger time to burn going down the barrel, thus increasing velocity, rather than burning out and slowing down in the barrel.

Also, another detail, the "true" carbines used a special extra spring under and attached to the frame to take the extra recoil of the hotter round.

Ed

[Waschbaer]

Hmm, I'll have to recheck the specs on that exta spring. For some reason mauser left it off in the carbine copies they produced in the 1970's, probably due to the simple fact that nobody would be shooting them with hot loads. The thing I'm wondering is just how hot the original carbine loads were. Allegedly Kaiser Wilhelm II used his to hunt deer, so if this is true they must have had a bit more umph than usual (I believe he had the 7,65 version though). Of course, now I'm getting really off topic, and should be in the reloading section, but: does anyone think that todays "+P" loads would be similar to the original carbines, or were they hotter/cooler than that? Finally, how do any of these comepare with some of the subgun loads used around the world? It'll be fun making a beautiful carbine if I decide to do so in the end, but on the other hand I'm also considering just keeping it as a pistol and getting it custom engraved et cetera. Jeez, decisions decisions decisions. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

A couple of points of clarification here. A 7.65mm cartridge was in fact loaded specifically for the carbine (DWM headstamp 471) having a blackened case to distinguish it from the lesser-powered cartridges for the standard length barrels. It was loaded â??hotterâ?� to be able to function the heavier weight of the carbine barrel/receiver assembly. The accelerator spring in the forestock of the carbine was not so much to control the recoil of the hotter round, but to assist in returning the heavy barrel/receiver group back into battery.

On the later carbines produced in the 1920s (and the modern Mauser replicas), this auxiliary accelerator spring was not necessary because these carbines were created with the coil mainspring which could be made sufficiently powerful to function as both the accelerator spring and the leaf spring combination of the old 1902 carbine. I suspect that the 1920 carbines and the Mauser repros would function with a standard round, but not as reliably as with the hotter black cased round.

As far as making a legal 16â?� barreled carbine, a hotter load is probably a good idea. Not for the purpose of creating 300 H&H Magnum performance in a stocked handgun, but to achieve the aforementioned reliable functioning. As Washbaer has already observed, there is not much point in building a nice shooting carbine replica and then beat the bejeebers out of it with ultra hot loads to the point that all that hard work in building it is destroyed.

[Edward Tinker]

Thank you Ron, sorry about the confusion on the "blackened" cases Thomas, go by what Ron says, cuz he knows and I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous! <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
Ed

[Thor]

If you taylor a load for the carbine, with just enough to work the action and within pressure limits you went far enough safetly. A medium to slow powder like Blue dot will peak in a longer barrel. The rub comes if you accidently fire one of these in a 4" and you crack the frame or toggle, Roadkill busted a rear toggle link yesterday. Food for thought. Clearly marked reloads are a good idea, but you can always mess up if you make a mistake.

[Waschbaer]

THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT RESPONSES! If I do end up building this strange creature and working up a special load, I'll most likely add some black laquer to the bullet tips to keep them out of my other guns. The only problem I'll run into is in creating a useful stock-- my gun has had its stock lug removed, so I'll probably end up with either a veeeery strangely engineered gun or ditching the idea altogether in favor of "carbinizing" my c96 and putting a 16 inch 9mm barrel on that bugger. Still in the brainstorming stage here, dunno what the heck I'm gonna do yet. Upon further consideration, I am sorta leaning towards the c96 as being an easier project (apart from the fact that barrel/receiver are one solid piece). Ugh. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />