1921 Commerical Police !!

[Edward Tinker]

This is an interesting find that I came across. A friend of mine received an e-mail and was told about a Luger, in the discussion he found out that it more than likely was a Weimar Police and he kindly put me in touch with him. Then I "tried" to give him some advice, and he offered me the Luger, which I â??madeâ?� myself afford and now it has made a place in my collection.

It is a 1921 DWM Commercial, there are several things about it that make me wonder, but it was seemingly "untouched" when I got it. Bore was full of years of grime and the grips had spots of rust under them, although with some freckling and spots of rust that cleaned up nicely.
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921leftsidesmaller.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921leftsidesmaller.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921date.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921date.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Here are the oddities of this gun:

It seemingly is a five digit commercial, its numbering is in line with the year (1921), however, and this is something that could be a manufacturing error (?) or is it possible that the gun started as imperial parts and became a "commercial"

The serial number is marked on the left in the commercial fashion and also at the front of the trigger guard. HOWEVER, under the commercial serial number is an "a" and on the barrel it is marked with the last FOUR and a suffix "a".

The toggle pin was broken, but I am not overly worried about that, although it is a shame and it is tight unless you take it out. It did not come out easy and I believe it had not been out for many years.

It has a sear safety but no magazine safety was ever installed. The sear has been stamped with what is believed to be a repair stamping.
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921searstamping.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921searstamping.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921searcloseupstamping.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921searcloseupstamping.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

In addition to having a sear safety, it is police (unit) marked O.P.M. 274 on the front grip strap, I could not find a correlation in my book for this marking?
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921unitpolicemarking.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921unitpolicemarking.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

The magazine is not matching, but is stamped as a police with the serial number and the number 1.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921magazine1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921magazine1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

And Dwight, the witness marking is straight on and appears to be original.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921witnessmarks.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921witnessmarks.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Here is a close up of the left side, the sideplate looks a bit odd, possibly force matched by a police armory, it is crown B stamped, again "probably" a repair stamping.
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...decloseup1.jpg

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921rightsidesmaller.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1921rightsidesmaller.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[Dwight Gruber]

Ed,

Excellent score!

The numbering scheme is interesting, and I think your speculation on the source of the gun has merit. Check carefully, under magnification, is the witness mark perfect, that is, single instrument/single strike? If so, it would indicate that the barrel is original to the receiver, thus the barrel number would be the gun's original (if the mark is not perfect all bets are off). If this is the case, it would appear that this gun was "commercialized" in quite a hurry.

The HZa mark is a Heeres Zeugamt armory repair stamp, the number designates which armory (G�¶rtz, reported in AutoMag, can't dig out the specific reference right now).

The side plate looks like it was originally from an Erfurt.

Are there any marks on the grips?

Couldn't find anything in G�¶rtz & Bryans on the unit mark, I'll be real interested to see what anyone else comes up with. Probably not nearly as interested as you.

--Dwight

[Navy]

O.P.M. is Ordunungs Polezi Muenchen, IIRC.

Tom A.

[Edward Tinker]

Thanks Tom, could very well be it!

And to tell the truth, the gentleman hadn't said anything aobut the markings, so I was very pleasantly surprised!

Dwight, under magnafication, it looks good to me, but here it is:

[policeluger]

Nice gun, as you know there are always a lot of possibilitys in Wiemar police, including Erfurt side plates on DWM guns. The last 4 of a 5 diget SN# on barrel is a bit strange, at least too me. Just went too safe and looked at a few 1921's, one I believe I showed too you at last Reno show I was at. None are 5 diget SN. and one is a S.D. marked front grip. The close up of the side plate shows a bit more of a grinding to the top section of the lever hump then I would believe too be factory or armory.

[Edward Tinker]

Thanks Howard, I find it an interesting variation, most likely a real one, i.e. a five digit, a collector friend of mine feels that the barrel and the suffix were put on, then it was decided to make it a commerical, all conjucture, but likely possibilities.

Ed

[Edward Tinker]

Rick, more than curosity!

Yes, I would like to see them, and share them with Jan, as we have had several conversations about this. Please post them here and/or send me high resolution pictures, I would be most interested,

Ed

[Edward Tinker]

I made your pictures show, hope that was okay and apprecaite seeing them!

Now that is interesting, yours is just 165 older than mine? And the placement of the 8 is the same, as is the "a"

So did they pull a batch of military and sent them to the police?

Your unit marking, could very well be police and just never was given a sear safety in 1932.

Thanks!!

Ed

[saxman]

Well, it's pretty obvious to me, as a layman, that with two examples of this type, that this is an authentic category, and Tinker's gun is original. Lugers. It seems like there's no end to the variations, and nothing is as it seems.

[Edward Tinker]

I pulled out Weimar Lugers and it has S.II as Schneidemuhl II (2nd) administrative district and is that an "n" after the II? That I am not sure about, if it was an "r" it would mean something, while an "n" does not?

If the S stands for Schneidemuhl, then it is a Prussian State Police grip strap marking.

But it makes for an interesting gun!

Ed

[Ron Wood]

Ed,
That is a very nice find, and I think you have come up with another variation "for the books". Congratulations.

[Edward Tinker]

Here are my grips:

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/grips_left_side.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/grips_left_side.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/grips_right_side.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/grips_right_side.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

The S.Hn I have no idea, possibly Saxon area?

[Edward Tinker]

I saw some other information on Jan's forum and have compiled this further information from both forums:

1921 DWM â??Commercialâ?�

[Lyn Islaub]

Ed,
This post is becoming pretty interesting, so you might as well add mine to your matrix.
S/N 2203a, chamber date 1920, sear safety, AYA4 proofs, Unit marked, "S.Hn. 11".
Thx, Lyn

[Edward Tinker]

Interesting Lyn that it is a 1,000 less, is a police and is a S.Hn? Or just a funny coincidence?

Ed

[Lyn Islaub]

Ed,
Interesting in that 2 Lugers with the same previously unknown "S.Hn" grip strap marking have appeared. Interesting in that some seem to have had the "8" added later to the serial number and some did not.Interesting that some of them did not have the the mandatory sear safety installed.
Lyn

[Edward Tinker]

Lyn, the 8 being added to this time frame is odd, and then to have pictures of 2 others just like mine is very interesting indeed. The sear safety is a different issue, from talking to Jan and Bill, and his books, the reason appears to be that the sear safety wasn't required until August 30, 1933, and even then; it is assumed that it was national, when the regulation was for Prussian State Police. So it is very possible that many lugers were police lugers and do not have a sear or magazine safety.

Further, in Weimar Lugers, it states that there were many guns still in storage and issued during the war build up. And that is why you might see sear safety's and NO magazine safety, as the mag safety was elminated from police service in 1937 and thus "missed" being worked on.

Ed

[Heinz]

Nice find Ed. The stamps with the 8 added are very interesting. They do not appear well aligned in on either pistol and both barrels have the crown N proof with an a suffix. These might be as good a candidates for the "Riff" contract reworks as any :-)