Black Widow Luger

Munsterman · 05-05-2004, 08:21 PM

I just purchased a German 9mm luger, erfurt produced 1914 with a rework date of 1920. It has all imperial markings and matching numbers(except extractor) The only thing I don't understand is it is the "black widow" variation that is weird because usually only 42 dated lugers are black widow. I will post pics, I just want to know what i got and how much it is worth for insurance reasons. any info is greatly appreciated!!!

Aaron · 05-05-2004, 09:04 PM

What makes your Luger the "Black Widow" variety? The grips?

Munsterman · 05-05-2004, 09:05 PM

Also, I found some letters on the front side of the grip it says "P W 142" is that police or unit markings, I hear that is common do you guys have any idea what mine mean.

Doubs · 05-06-2004, 01:19 AM

While I can't see enough to determine which, you have either an East German rework or a Russian capture pistol subsequently dip blued and new Russian-made plastic grips added. It's not a "Black Widow" which is only a name anyway made up by a collector to increase the sale value. The grip checkering appears to be too coarse to be WW2 German production.... which would be incorrect on an Erfurt WW1 production pistol anyway. It's also a "Double Date", bearing the "1920" Weimar Republic property stamp (it's NOT a date and it's NOT a "rework" stamp) over the original date of 1914. It's a recent import as indicated by the import markings on the right side of the frame.

If anywhere on it there's what appears to be a starburst surrounding a shield with numbers inside, it's an E. German rework. If the mag with it is numbered to the gun and has either a "1" or a "2" on it, it's likely an E. German rework or "VoPo" Luger..... "People's Police". The finish also suggests E. German.

Aaron · 05-06-2004, 01:29 AM

I agree you have a post war rework/import with East German replacement grips. As a shooter the value is probably $400 to $450. Now the holster looks really nice and may be worth quite a bit. What are the markings on it?

Vlim · 05-06-2004, 10:33 AM

Hi Guys,

The grips are not the commonly found VoPo grips and the quality of these grips doesn't even come close. So I rule out the DDR 'VoPo' reworking. Check for a crown/N fire proof on the barrel, that'll help.

It appears to come from a post-war source, and there were quite a few. The fact that small parts have not been blued over and that it lacks both VoPo grips and a new VoPo barrel pretty much rules out Eastern-Germany as source.

I would advise you to swap the grips for some more decent ones, perhaps the newly made Nill-grips. It will do this gun justice. After all, it has served in 2 wars, the days between and a number of years after the last war. You can't get more history in a handgun than that

John Sabato · 05-06-2004, 10:45 AM

I tend to agree with Gerben... these coarse checkered black plastic grips are not representative of even post-war East German craftsmanship and I believe they are Russian in origin.

The more common VoPo grips are a very quality item and the checkering on the plastic comes pretty close to the quality found on "black widow" style grips..

As to finish, the Russians weren't known for smooth finish, just functionality. So this pistol probably had a good finish on it when captured... and the Captors just dipped it with all the rest...

The holster IS in good condition, but has been dyed black as evidenced by the black stitches...

I agree with the overall value as a shooter to be in the $500.00 ballpark and the holster is probably worth a couple of hundred if it is original and not a reproduction.

So, in conclusion, IMHO I think this is a Russian captured Luger rework...

Vlim · 05-06-2004, 02:41 PM

Hi Musterman,

Does the luger contain any 'cross' mark? Like on the gripstrap underneath the frame serial number?

Munsterman · 05-06-2004, 08:04 PM

In fact yes, I checked it over and it does have the Russian Cross mark identical to the one on my K98, and the holster is a BEAUTIFUL original Otto Kobers** 1941 and the stiches are mostly still white the pic is just poor quality. I will also assume that the Russkys took all the Nazi markings off(the luger). The gun is in great shape, and for out here in Far Rural Minnesota there is only one other luger in the county, they are very scarce out here and when encountered command a premium, according to your estimates i got a good deal on it. I recently saw a Luger with absoulutely no matching numbers priced at 800 even. This is my first luger (i am only 18) and I am already plotting to buy another one or five maybe!! do you guys know of any places where i could get an old luger that looks rough but shoots for a good price, also i need some wood grips (light color if possible) Thank you guys sooo much all your information is greatly apprecited!!

Doubs · 05-06-2004, 10:38 PM

"The fact that small parts have not been blued over.."

Some have been blued over. Look at the locking lug and the safety lever. The mag release and ejector appear to be the original straw color.

"I will also assume that the Russkys took all the Nazi markings off(the luger)."

As an Imperial-era Luger later stamped with a Weimar property mark, it shouldn't have had any Nazi markings on it. The markings I do see appear to be original Erfurt but the one on the locking lug I can't really make out.

It's difficult to tell from the pictures so could you tell us if the finish is an even shiney blue/black or does the finsh have some surfaces that appear to be sand-blasted blue?

I'm not disputing the Russian connection - as I mentioned the possibility in my original post - but I'd like to know more about your Luger.

Munsterman · 05-07-2004, 10:00 PM

The blue isn't the greatest but that also could have something to do with the fact that I haven't tried to polish or clean it yet, but it does have a smooth dull pitch. In the meantime I have a pair of wood grips i am looking at buying as i very much dislike my black grips. Over all I am still very proud of my Luger and am beginning to suffer from the beginning stages of an addiction to them, I am now looking at maybe buying a WWII version!! But enough bull-jive from me, if you guys have any more info for me I am more than happy to read it, thanks again for your information and help, it is greatly appreciated!!

Vlim · 05-09-2004, 08:00 AM

Hi,

The Russians weren't all that interested in denazification of the equipment they impounded. Doubs is correct that your gun doesn't have any offending marks to begin with, but my 1937 S/42 also shows no traces of removed markings.

This strengthens my belief that the Russians:
a: didn't disassemble and rebuild lugers like they did K98's.
b: didn't remove or retouch German markings.

As my S/42 was reblued later, I'm even speculating that the Russians didn't even bother to reblue them.

Disappearance of original grips appears to be the result of the storage/preservation methods used (dipping the whole lot in oil-filled barrels).

So apart from the tatty grips and the capture mark, my guess is that this luger is pretty much in the same state it was captured in.

Lugerdoc · 05-09-2004, 10:51 AM

GvV, I agree that the Russian didn't rebarrel PO8s with worn barrels and renumber parts to match as did the DDR. About the only way to tell the Russian "reworks" is by the new dip finish, applied over the unbuffed original one and the US importer's markings. TH

Don M · 09-17-2004, 08:24 PM

Is the grip strap mark "P.W.142." (note periods)?
Does it have a sear safety or evidence that it once had?

Thanks for any info.

Don

05-05-2004, 08:21 PM	#1
Munsterman User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Watonwan County, Minnesota Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Black Widow Luger I just purchased a German 9mm luger, erfurt produced 1914 with a rework date of 1920. It has all imperial markings and matching numbers(except extractor) The only thing I don't understand is it is the "black widow" variation that is weird because usually only 42 dated lugers are black widow. I will post pics, I just want to know what i got and how much it is worth for insurance reasons. any info is greatly appreciated!!!

05-06-2004, 10:45 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I tend to agree with Gerben... these coarse checkered black plastic grips are not representative of even post-war East German craftsmanship and I believe they are Russian in origin. The more common VoPo grips are a very quality item and the checkering on the plastic comes pretty close to the quality found on "black widow" style grips.. As to finish, the Russians weren't known for smooth finish, just functionality. So this pistol probably had a good finish on it when captured... and the Captors just dipped it with all the rest... The holster IS in good condition, but has been dyed black as evidenced by the black stitches... I agree with the overall value as a shooter to be in the $500.00 ballpark and the holster is probably worth a couple of hundred if it is original and not a reproduction. So, in conclusion, IMHO I think this is a Russian captured Luger rework... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-09-2004, 10:51 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	GvV, I agree that the Russian didn't rebarrel PO8s with worn barrels and renumber parts to match as did the DDR. About the only way to tell the Russian "reworks" is by the new dip finish, applied over the unbuffed original one and the US importer's markings. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-17-2004, 08:24 PM	#14
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Is the grip strap mark "P.W.142." (note periods)? Does it have a sear safety or evidence that it once had? Thanks for any info. Don __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

05-05-2004, 09:04 PM	#2
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	What makes your Luger the "Black Widow" variety? The grips?

05-05-2004, 09:05 PM	#3
Munsterman User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Watonwan County, Minnesota Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, I found some letters on the front side of the grip it says "P W 142" is that police or unit markings, I hear that is common do you guys have any idea what mine mean.

05-06-2004, 01:19 AM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	While I can't see enough to determine which, you have either an East German rework or a Russian capture pistol subsequently dip blued and new Russian-made plastic grips added. It's not a "Black Widow" which is only a name anyway made up by a collector to increase the sale value. The grip checkering appears to be too coarse to be WW2 German production.... which would be incorrect on an Erfurt WW1 production pistol anyway. It's also a "Double Date", bearing the "1920" Weimar Republic property stamp (it's NOT a date and it's NOT a "rework" stamp) over the original date of 1914. It's a recent import as indicated by the import markings on the right side of the frame. If anywhere on it there's what appears to be a starburst surrounding a shield with numbers inside, it's an E. German rework. If the mag with it is numbered to the gun and has either a "1" or a "2" on it, it's likely an E. German rework or "VoPo" Luger..... "People's Police". The finish also suggests E. German.

05-06-2004, 01:29 AM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	I agree you have a post war rework/import with East German replacement grips. As a shooter the value is probably $400 to $450. Now the holster looks really nice and may be worth quite a bit. What are the markings on it?

05-06-2004, 10:33 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Guys, The grips are not the commonly found VoPo grips and the quality of these grips doesn't even come close. So I rule out the DDR 'VoPo' reworking. Check for a crown/N fire proof on the barrel, that'll help. It appears to come from a post-war source, and there were quite a few. The fact that small parts have not been blued over and that it lacks both VoPo grips and a new VoPo barrel pretty much rules out Eastern-Germany as source. I would advise you to swap the grips for some more decent ones, perhaps the newly made Nill-grips. It will do this gun justice. After all, it has served in 2 wars, the days between and a number of years after the last war. You can't get more history in a handgun than that

05-06-2004, 02:41 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Musterman, Does the luger contain any 'cross' mark? Like on the gripstrap underneath the frame serial number?

05-06-2004, 08:04 PM	#9
Munsterman User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Watonwan County, Minnesota Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In fact yes, I checked it over and it does have the Russian Cross mark identical to the one on my K98, and the holster is a BEAUTIFUL original Otto Kobers** 1941 and the stiches are mostly still white the pic is just poor quality. I will also assume that the Russkys took all the Nazi markings off(the luger). The gun is in great shape, and for out here in Far Rural Minnesota there is only one other luger in the county, they are very scarce out here and when encountered command a premium, according to your estimates i got a good deal on it. I recently saw a Luger with absoulutely no matching numbers priced at 800 even. This is my first luger (i am only 18) and I am already plotting to buy another one or five maybe!! do you guys know of any places where i could get an old luger that looks rough but shoots for a good price, also i need some wood grips (light color if possible) Thank you guys sooo much all your information is greatly apprecited!!

05-06-2004, 10:38 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	"The fact that small parts have not been blued over.." Some have been blued over. Look at the locking lug and the safety lever. The mag release and ejector appear to be the original straw color. "I will also assume that the Russkys took all the Nazi markings off(the luger)." As an Imperial-era Luger later stamped with a Weimar property mark, it shouldn't have had any Nazi markings on it. The markings I do see appear to be original Erfurt but the one on the locking lug I can't really make out. It's difficult to tell from the pictures so could you tell us if the finish is an even shiney blue/black or does the finsh have some surfaces that appear to be sand-blasted blue? I'm not disputing the Russian connection - as I mentioned the possibility in my original post - but I'd like to know more about your Luger.

05-07-2004, 10:00 PM	#11
Munsterman User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Watonwan County, Minnesota Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The blue isn't the greatest but that also could have something to do with the fact that I haven't tried to polish or clean it yet, but it does have a smooth dull pitch. In the meantime I have a pair of wood grips i am looking at buying as i very much dislike my black grips. Over all I am still very proud of my Luger and am beginning to suffer from the beginning stages of an addiction to them, I am now looking at maybe buying a WWII version!! But enough bull-jive from me, if you guys have any more info for me I am more than happy to read it, thanks again for your information and help, it is greatly appreciated!!

05-09-2004, 08:00 AM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The Russians weren't all that interested in denazification of the equipment they impounded. Doubs is correct that your gun doesn't have any offending marks to begin with, but my 1937 S/42 also shows no traces of removed markings. This strengthens my belief that the Russians: a: didn't disassemble and rebuild lugers like they did K98's. b: didn't remove or retouch German markings. As my S/42 was reblued later, I'm even speculating that the Russians didn't even bother to reblue them. Disappearance of original grips appears to be the result of the storage/preservation methods used (dipping the whole lot in oil-filled barrels). So apart from the tatty grips and the capture mark, my guess is that this luger is pretty much in the same state it was captured in.