1920 Police ID

kidvett · 03-16-2003, 10:06 AM

Hello,

I need some help identifying a P-08 Weimar Police:

1920 dated DWM, 4 inch 9mm cal, Sear safety, frame cut for mag safety, left grip stamped S/42 E/_54 ( obviously a mismatch grip ), Strawed parts @ 80%, bluing @ 95%+. Receiver proofs below indicates Weimar Police rework BUT I'M CONFUSED

on a Barrel proof on the right side: the one on the left on top of the IMPERIAL barrel proof. CAN SOMEONE HELP ON THIS ONE??

Also adding to the confusion is a numbered ( Police style no 2 ) HAENEL SCHEIMEISSER mag?? I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THE LITTLE STAR ON TOP OF THE LETTER ON THE MAG???

Thanks,

kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

policeluger · 03-16-2003, 01:34 PM

1. Barrel marking,I can't see the proof real well, the pic is clear, I just can't make it out, but could it be a "PT" or "PTV" inter woven?
2. mag proof is found in Castanzo WOL #190b proofs, "C.G.Haenel Waffen und Fahrradfabric trademark....citu of Suhl." rated a 4 out of 10 for rare......hope this can help

kidvett · 03-16-2003, 06:18 PM

PoliceLuger,

A big thanks for the help!

But we still dont have a clear idea of what that little proof is??

Could it be a CONTRACT PROOF indicating issue to a different Police force??

I'm really confused here

THANKS FOR A BIG HELP

kidvett <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 03-16-2003, 08:16 PM

Kidvett,

On police magazines they have a Sunburst K, also other letters, S, B, D, and L, and sometimes the sunburst is an asterik above the letter. That is from Stil's weimar Lugers and appears to be what I think you are talking about.

Ed

Aaron · 03-16-2003, 09:24 PM

This is what many call an early third reich police rework. The TP represents the Technical Police armory which often rebarreled these reworks. See an earlier thread on my Erfurt police rework which also has the TP barrel replacement. These reworks also often have the matching HS magazines.

policeluger · 03-16-2003, 09:28 PM

Ed, This is not a "sunburst" mag proof, but reference back too Coatanzo for this one, and again I believe it is a star "H". As for the barrel proof, I've tried too look at it from all sides and I am stumped.

Edward Tinker · 03-16-2003, 09:33 PM

Police Luger, I think you are right the first time, I think it is very possibly a TP that was just stamped bad? Or slightly double stamped?

In Still, Weimar Lugers, it shows a normal sunburst, but also shows an asterik with a letter below, and labels it "sunburst", so, assumed that is what they were called.

Ed

kidvett · 03-16-2003, 11:07 PM

PoliceLuger, Aaron & Ed,

A great thanks for the help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Aaron,

I read your post about the 1914 ERFURT Police and I can ID this pistol as similar to yours! An early Nazi Police Rework

With that S/42 proof inside the grip panel, is it right to believe that it's a MAUSER Rework??

Probably dated between 1930-33??

Thanks again,

A happy kidvett <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Lugerdoc · 03-17-2003, 09:17 AM

PL, The star/H (for Haenel) is not a suffix letter, rather the correct manufacture's marked bottom for your back marked Schmeisser Police mag. Sometimes in addition, there will be a Police acceptance (* over a letter) also stamped on the spine, below the Haenel/Schmeisser. Tom H.

policeluger · 03-17-2003, 09:51 AM

Doc, I do not believe that a suffix letter was brought up, rather a mag proof to denote who made it. Costanzo's book it still a great reference. thanks

saxman · 03-17-2003, 07:27 PM

Kidvett; Does your '1920' look like mine? My receiver proofs are the same as yours, but my DWM Luger has no extra safeties or cuts. The question is whether the '1920' is a date or a property mark.

saxman · 03-17-2003, 07:33 PM

You can see the barrel proof (and a rug fiber) near the top of the picture. Also, a close examination of the 'date' area leads me to think the area was carefully ground down and restamped with the 1920. You can't see it in the picture, but it can be seen if you have the gun and know what to look for.

kidvett · 03-17-2003, 09:04 PM

Hello Saxman,

Well...The sad news first

This 1920 Police ( or should I say Early Nazi Police Rework ) is not mine YET!

We are talking big $$$

but it's a complete rig...As my knowledge was limited on those specific models ( I mostly collect ERFURT & NAZI P-08's ) I asked the experts...I like to know what I'm buying....

The Ground off date: Look at the pistol from the front ( gotta point yourself in the face

) and examine the center portion of the chamber...if it is flat & lower than the sides: it was grounded off....The pistol I'm looking at is a ground off date...

Hope this helps a little...

kidvett

Dwight Gruber · 03-17-2003, 09:28 PM

Is this really a chamber date, or is it a property mark?

--Dwight

saxman · 03-18-2003, 12:37 PM

Dwight; I brought this up before, and the consensus was it's a property mark. I'm trying to determine if Kidvett's mark is just like mine, and if so, what is the consensus on his. He's already calling his (if he gets it) a '1920'. I'm hoping information given for his gun will help me identify mine.
Kidvett; Yes, that's how I tumbled to the fact that mine was ground and re-stamped. It was such a pretty job that at first I thought it wasn't, but I eventually noticed less steel on the chamber top like you mentioned (looking from the muzzle), and you can feel the very slight variation from roundness where the armorer blended the new curve in at the sides. So, both of our guns, marked '1920', and with the same receiver proofs have been reworked and refinished. Mine sure looks like rust blue. Was this done on reworks prior to WWII? I hope you get that one as it sounds very collectible. Mine, I'm afraid, is just a shooter. I don't have the original magazine, sideplate or takedown lever, and the grips are unmarked, but obviously old and very well fitted to the gun. Still, I like it and have decided to keep it after recently offering it for sale or trade for a Hi-Power. I just went ahead and bought a Hi-Power. Here in VA, it's 'one handgun a month', so even if it's inconvenient, I get one every month. After all, it's the law! (LOL)

saxman · 03-18-2003, 12:48 PM

After going back to the Technical Section and reviewing the proofs again, I'm starting to think
my DWM is a 'reworked 1920 military' probably by Simpson since it has the Simpson proof on the barrel. The barrel has been numbered to the gun, but my frame has the suffix 'H' while the barrel has the suffix 'L'. This leads me to believe that the 9mm barrel was installed during the rework. Someone else had a similar suffix mismatch on a DWM when we were discussing this before. God help me, this is starting to get intersting!

AGE · 03-18-2003, 07:24 PM

Yes, my police Frankenluger has a barrel number that matches the frame serial number, but they have different suffixs. The receiver serial number has been removed from the side, but the last 2 serial number digits appear on the inside lug and most of the small parts including the magazine.

Mine has nothing over the chamber (no 1920) and no proofs at all remain. It is "white" inside and it looks like it has rust bluing.

policeluger · 03-19-2003, 12:06 PM

Well no one else brought it up so I will. The mag bottom, the body of it as it fits to the alum bottom, looks very much like its been poorly replaced. The position of the pin, and the gaps at mag bottom and body of clip would cause me to believe it was after factory replaced...?

saxman · 03-19-2003, 07:34 PM

Perhaps the mag tube was damaged and the numbered bottom was put on a new mag?

Heinz · 03-19-2003, 07:48 PM

To keep it interesting my 1915 dated police, probably an early nazi rework, has the imperial barrel proof in the usual spot, a "perfect witness mark" and an early Nazi acceptance proof on the takedown side of the barrel. I strongly believe it is the original barrel with an acceptance proof.

heinz

03-16-2003, 08:16 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	Kidvett, On police magazines they have a Sunburst K, also other letters, S, B, D, and L, and sometimes the sunburst is an asterik above the letter. That is from Stil's weimar Lugers and appears to be what I think you are talking about. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-16-2003, 09:33 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	Police Luger, I think you are right the first time, I think it is very possibly a TP that was just stamped bad? Or slightly double stamped? In Still, Weimar Lugers, it shows a normal sunburst, but also shows an asterik with a letter below, and labels it "sunburst", so, assumed that is what they were called. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-17-2003, 09:17 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	PL, The star/H (for Haenel) is not a suffix letter, rather the correct manufacture's marked bottom for your back marked Schmeisser Police mag. Sometimes in addition, there will be a Police acceptance (* over a letter) also stamped on the spine, below the Haenel/Schmeisser. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-17-2003, 07:27 PM	#11
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kidvett; Does your '1920' look like mine? My receiver proofs are the same as yours, but my DWM Luger has no extra safeties or cuts. The question is whether the '1920' is a date or a property mark. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

03-17-2003, 07:33 PM	#12
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You can see the barrel proof (and a rug fiber) near the top of the picture. Also, a close examination of the 'date' area leads me to think the area was carefully ground down and restamped with the 1920. You can't see it in the picture, but it can be seen if you have the gun and know what to look for. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

03-16-2003, 10:06 AM	#1
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	1920 Police ID Hello, I need some help identifying a P-08 Weimar Police: 1920 dated DWM, 4 inch 9mm cal, Sear safety, frame cut for mag safety, left grip stamped S/42 E/_54 ( obviously a mismatch grip ), Strawed parts @ 80%, bluing @ 95%+. Receiver proofs below indicates Weimar Police rework BUT I'M CONFUSED on a Barrel proof on the right side: the one on the left on top of the IMPERIAL barrel proof. CAN SOMEONE HELP ON THIS ONE?? Also adding to the confusion is a numbered ( Police style no 2 ) HAENEL SCHEIMEISSER mag?? I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THE LITTLE STAR ON TOP OF THE LETTER ON THE MAG??? Thanks, kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

03-16-2003, 01:34 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	1. Barrel marking,I can't see the proof real well, the pic is clear, I just can't make it out, but could it be a "PT" or "PTV" inter woven? 2. mag proof is found in Castanzo WOL #190b proofs, "C.G.Haenel Waffen und Fahrradfabric trademark....citu of Suhl." rated a 4 out of 10 for rare......hope this can help

03-16-2003, 06:18 PM	#3
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	PoliceLuger, A big thanks for the help! But we still dont have a clear idea of what that little proof is?? Could it be a CONTRACT PROOF indicating issue to a different Police force?? I'm really confused here THANKS FOR A BIG HELP kidvett <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

03-16-2003, 09:24 PM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	This is what many call an early third reich police rework. The TP represents the Technical Police armory which often rebarreled these reworks. See an earlier thread on my Erfurt police rework which also has the TP barrel replacement. These reworks also often have the matching HS magazines.

03-16-2003, 09:28 PM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Ed, This is not a "sunburst" mag proof, but reference back too Coatanzo for this one, and again I believe it is a star "H". As for the barrel proof, I've tried too look at it from all sides and I am stumped.

03-16-2003, 11:07 PM	#8
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	PoliceLuger, Aaron & Ed, A great thanks for the help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Aaron, I read your post about the 1914 ERFURT Police and I can ID this pistol as similar to yours! An early Nazi Police Rework With that S/42 proof inside the grip panel, is it right to believe that it's a MAUSER Rework?? Probably dated between 1930-33?? Thanks again, A happy kidvett <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

03-17-2003, 09:51 AM	#10
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Doc, I do not believe that a suffix letter was brought up, rather a mag proof to denote who made it. Costanzo's book it still a great reference. thanks

03-17-2003, 09:04 PM	#13
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hello Saxman, Well...The sad news first This 1920 Police ( or should I say Early Nazi Police Rework ) is not mine YET! We are talking big $$$ but it's a complete rig...As my knowledge was limited on those specific models ( I mostly collect ERFURT & NAZI P-08's ) I asked the experts...I like to know what I'm buying.... The Ground off date: Look at the pistol from the front ( gotta point yourself in the face ) and examine the center portion of the chamber...if it is flat & lower than the sides: it was grounded off....The pistol I'm looking at is a ground off date... Hope this helps a little... kidvett

03-17-2003, 09:28 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Is this really a chamber date, or is it a property mark? --Dwight

03-18-2003, 12:37 PM	#15
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight; I brought this up before, and the consensus was it's a property mark. I'm trying to determine if Kidvett's mark is just like mine, and if so, what is the consensus on his. He's already calling his (if he gets it) a '1920'. I'm hoping information given for his gun will help me identify mine. Kidvett; Yes, that's how I tumbled to the fact that mine was ground and re-stamped. It was such a pretty job that at first I thought it wasn't, but I eventually noticed less steel on the chamber top like you mentioned (looking from the muzzle), and you can feel the very slight variation from roundness where the armorer blended the new curve in at the sides. So, both of our guns, marked '1920', and with the same receiver proofs have been reworked and refinished. Mine sure looks like rust blue. Was this done on reworks prior to WWII? I hope you get that one as it sounds very collectible. Mine, I'm afraid, is just a shooter. I don't have the original magazine, sideplate or takedown lever, and the grips are unmarked, but obviously old and very well fitted to the gun. Still, I like it and have decided to keep it after recently offering it for sale or trade for a Hi-Power. I just went ahead and bought a Hi-Power. Here in VA, it's 'one handgun a month', so even if it's inconvenient, I get one every month. After all, it's the law! (LOL) __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

03-18-2003, 12:48 PM	#16
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	After going back to the Technical Section and reviewing the proofs again, I'm starting to think my DWM is a 'reworked 1920 military' probably by Simpson since it has the Simpson proof on the barrel. The barrel has been numbered to the gun, but my frame has the suffix 'H' while the barrel has the suffix 'L'. This leads me to believe that the 9mm barrel was installed during the rework. Someone else had a similar suffix mismatch on a DWM when we were discussing this before. God help me, this is starting to get intersting! __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

03-18-2003, 07:24 PM	#17
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, my police Frankenluger has a barrel number that matches the frame serial number, but they have different suffixs. The receiver serial number has been removed from the side, but the last 2 serial number digits appear on the inside lug and most of the small parts including the magazine. Mine has nothing over the chamber (no 1920) and no proofs at all remain. It is "white" inside and it looks like it has rust bluing. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

03-19-2003, 12:06 PM	#18
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Well no one else brought it up so I will. The mag bottom, the body of it as it fits to the alum bottom, looks very much like its been poorly replaced. The position of the pin, and the gaps at mag bottom and body of clip would cause me to believe it was after factory replaced...?

03-19-2003, 07:34 PM	#19
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Perhaps the mag tube was damaged and the numbered bottom was put on a new mag? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

03-19-2003, 07:48 PM	#20
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	To keep it interesting my 1915 dated police, probably an early nazi rework, has the imperial barrel proof in the usual spot, a "perfect witness mark" and an early Nazi acceptance proof on the takedown side of the barrel. I strongly believe it is the original barrel with an acceptance proof. heinz