An Oddball Shooter? Or Rarity (Not)

kenfromalaska · 08-30-2002, 12:55 AM

I sold my last two Lugers in 1989 (minty Krieghoff and Simson), got rid of my books, acessories, etc and moved on, ending up here in Alaska where fortuitously I work in a major league gun shop. All my Lugers then were impeccable, all collector grade etc, nothing oddball....

You dont see a lot of Lugers up here in the Land of only 600,000 odd souls. The other day, however, I snagged one. Its a 1916 Erfurt, stamped Germany on both sides of the frame rails, 60% bluing, all numbers matching....but....

The barrel...its 7.65. It has no proofs, no numbers, no nothing...just a subtly differnt blue...and...

Its crooked...the front sight, which looks straight, is canted off to the right. Now this led me to beleive that some numbnuts screwed a new barrel in...but could this be an orignal? Shouldnt a Germany marked frame have no date on the breech in the 7.65 cal? Or ?????

Anyway, I am ready to rebarrel it to 9 mm, but now I am thinking.....???

The ultimate goal was to have TLSS job, but what if its orignal? Now I would be stuck with a 7.65 that I cant shoot! I gave up that non shooting stuff years ago...

Any ideas???? <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" />

Garfield · 08-30-2002, 01:04 AM

Which gun shop in Anc do you work in? Being from that neck of the woods I probably have been there.

Garfield · 08-30-2002, 01:20 AM

Oh, yeh!

Forgot to add that you shouldn't worry about your pistol being "original". Erfurt did not produce a luger model chambered for the 7.65 cal. But then, you as a collector of impeccable collector grade Krieghoffs and Simpsons knew that, didn't you?

Lugerdoc · 08-30-2002, 08:03 AM

Ken, If your front sight is not perpendicular to the axis of the barrel, this sounds like a sloopy rebarreling job and definately not done by the factory. Is the barrel proofed? If the groove for the extractor at the breech end, is properly alined, it's possible that the whole barrel was twisted in rebarreling, and not useable. Years ago, before I had the proper tools and technic, I can recall removing a shot out 7.65x98mm barrel, that twisted 90 degrees, before it released. Tom

Johnny Peppers · 08-30-2002, 09:48 AM

Following WWI many military Lugers were shipped to the US and sold by sporting goods stores. I have an ad from Hudson Sporting Goods in NY that advertises a "GRADE No. 2 Genuine Luger Auto. Pistols, 30 Cal. and 9 m/m, blue finish, 4 inch barrel. They are in perfect condition and guaranteed. Some of these are better than the new ones that are being made today. OUR SPECIAL PRICE $19.75"
"GRADE No. 2 - Luger Auto., 9 m/m, with 6 inch, also a few with 8 inch barrels. In fine used condition; exceptional value. SPECIAL PRICE $24.85"
These surplus military pistols would have had the GERMANY export stamp, and apparently they had already rebarreled some to .30 cal. Some want to lump these pistols in with the commercial pistols of the period, but as can be seen from the ads they were nothing but surplus military Lugers sold commercially.

Edward Tinker · 08-30-2002, 10:08 AM

Johnny, sometimes I think that age has a lot to do with it. Time goes by, so, since it happened so many years ago, it is acceptable, although the same thing happening recently (1980's) is too new.

Aaron · 08-30-2002, 10:44 AM

Click on to the "Owner's Corner" and take a look at my 1914 DWM marked "Germany." This one came straight from the battle field and was left entirely unchanged. It was exported with a holster, tool, and spare magazine. However, many were rebarreled and altered in many ways.

Doubs · 08-30-2002, 11:49 AM

Following the war, large numbers of military pistols were re-worked for export with "Germany" being stamped on the guns in various places. In the early - mid 1920's, DWM also made commercial pistols that carry a military-style serial number (suffix letter) but stamped in the commercial manner. The Finnish contract pistols came from these guns. Many of the military re-works were rebarreled in .30 caliber. Also, many of the new production DWM pistols were in .30 caliber.

The quality of the reworks varied tremendously and it was during this period that the Luger gained a reputation for poor quality. I have a book written by Julian Hatcher and published in 1927, IIRC. His comments on the quality of many Lugers being imported then are harsh. My father owned numerous Lugers during that time period and, while his were top quality, he often commented on the poor reputation of the Luger in the years between the wars. It sounds like you may have gotten one of the guns that wasn't done so well.

I've owned a commercial DWM .30 Luger of the suffix letter series that was both reliable and extremely accurate. I have a reworked Erfurt with the date removed that is as good as the DWM and I have a "Frankenschloss" rework of about 1939 vintage that's based on a first issue Navy, altered, and while I've not shot it, the workmanship is excellent. My E. German rework that Hugh put a 6" .30 barrel on is rapidly becoming my favorite shooter.

I like the .30 Luger cartridge but I reload for it. If you don't reload, then rebarreling to 9mm is the way for you to go IMO.

kenfromalaska · 08-30-2002, 12:26 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Garfield:
<strong>Oh, yeh!

But then, you as a collector of impeccable collector grade Krieghoffs and Simpsons knew that, didn't you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes actually I did.

kenfromalaska · 08-30-2002, 12:33 PM

OK, now not having the advantage of my books anymore can I assume that the factors against this being original are the abscense of proofs and the crooked barrel? Are there any lists of rework numbers or refernces like that?

To me a post war rework (ie 20s) would make me leave it alone, if done by some wrench jockey up here in the wilds, I will either straighten or rebarrel and get one of them fancy TLSS jobs! <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Johnny Peppers · 08-30-2002, 07:00 PM

Edward,
All the Lugers sold by Ye Olde Hunter in the 1950's were never designated 1950 Commercials and that has been almost 50 years ago so apparently time has nothing to do with it.
Maybe Luger collectors 50 or 60 years from now will be calling the recent Russian imports 1990 or 2000 Commercials.
In an A.F. Stoger ad of the period, they proudly proclaim their Luger pistol in this manner: "Here is the real Luger---the same high-grade pistol that was turned out before the war---. Additionally they add: "Do not confuse this Luger with the rebuilt army Lugers---."

Edward Tinker · 08-30-2002, 07:04 PM

Ye old Hunter. Now if we could get those prices... I think we talked about this before and when you made $25 a week, then a $25 dollar gun was what we would pay, what 500 600 800 ?

Johnny, the old hunters, are they some of the ones that had what ever barrel length you wanted? Reblued or what?

Doubs · 08-30-2002, 07:38 PM

"Ye Olde Hunter" was Sam Cumming's commercial outlet for state-side sales. The store front was at 10 Prince Street, Alexandria, VA. The building was on pilings, IIRC, because you went up stairs to reach the first floor and down a hallway at least 25 or 30 feet long before ascending a long set of stairs to the second floor. On one of my visits there in the early 1960's, that hallway was lined by glass display cases. In those cases was the largest number of Lugers I've ever seen in one place.... placed as close together as possible and easily numbering 150 or more. Possibly many more. At the time it seemed to me that they had every date, maker and combination of markings possible! That's when an Artillery was bringing $39.95 and the standard model only $29.95!

I'm sure that someday, 2002 will be remembered as the "good ol' days" too. The past was nice but today and tomorrow is what we have to work with.

Johnny Peppers · 08-30-2002, 08:14 PM

Doubs,
If I remember correctly, you could buy either the 4, 6, or 8 inch barrel Luger at an increased cost for the longer barrels. No distinction was made as to model or variation.

Doubs · 08-30-2002, 09:33 PM

Johnny, as I recall, the Artillery was offered at $39.95 and the standard 4" barrel model at $10 less. I really don't remember a 6" barrel being offered but that doesn't mean it wasn't.... only that I can't remember. LOL

Somewhere I have an issue of the American Rifleman with a Ye Olde Hunter ad in it for the Lugers and when I run across it I'll post a picture.

kenfromalaska · 08-31-2002, 01:03 AM

The serial number on my little gem is 1905.Any significance to that...???

Looks like Im gonna buy Luger books again. Fortunately we have a second hand bookstore here with a lot of them.

kenfromalaska · 08-31-2002, 03:48 AM

[quote]Originally posted by tacfoley:
<strong>Dear Mr Kenfromalaska -

1905 what?

If you are implying that the number alone has a mystic date-attributable significance, then my byf42 [#808n] must be very old indeed......On the other hand, my 1918 DWM [#5248c] hasn't been made yet.
BTW - do any of the other 599,999 folks there have any Lugers, or are you a lone voice in the [very large] wilderness?

tacfoley in sunny UK with 66,999,999 other people, not one of whom is a Luger collector any more.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The serial number is just 1905...thats it.....does it ahve any meaning in the context of a 1916 Erfurt with a crooked 7.65 barrel and export markings....???
[img]wink.gif[/img]

Lugerdoc · 08-31-2002, 11:13 AM

Doubs, I too purchased my first luger from Ye Ole Hunter in 1959 mail order from an ad in Boys Life for the exorbinate price of $39.95 and for $10 more they threw in an orig WW2 holster and 100 rounds of Canadian (or CIA) 9mm SMG ammo. #0 Prince St. store is still in business as Potomic Arms (regular retail shop) and #10 Prince is the buliding up the street, where YOH moved when they became Interarmco. Tom H.

Doubs · 08-31-2002, 12:46 PM

Tom, as I recall there was a large chainlink fence around the building and some rather impressive ordnance sitting there..... mortars, field guns and such. It was an interesting place to visit.

Garfield · 08-31-2002, 01:02 PM

Kenfromalaska:

The short answer to your question is, "no".

08-30-2002, 08:03 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Ken, If your front sight is not perpendicular to the axis of the barrel, this sounds like a sloopy rebarreling job and definately not done by the factory. Is the barrel proofed? If the groove for the extractor at the breech end, is properly alined, it's possible that the whole barrel was twisted in rebarreling, and not useable. Years ago, before I had the proper tools and technic, I can recall removing a shot out 7.65x98mm barrel, that twisted 90 degrees, before it released. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-30-2002, 10:08 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Johnny, sometimes I think that age has a lot to do with it. Time goes by, so, since it happened so many years ago, it is acceptable, although the same thing happening recently (1980's) is too new. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-30-2002, 07:04 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Ye old Hunter. Now if we could get those prices... I think we talked about this before and when you made $25 a week, then a $25 dollar gun was what we would pay, what 500 600 800 ? Johnny, the old hunters, are they some of the ones that had what ever barrel length you wanted? Reblued or what? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-31-2002, 11:13 AM	#18
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Doubs, I too purchased my first luger from Ye Ole Hunter in 1959 mail order from an ad in Boys Life for the exorbinate price of $39.95 and for $10 more they threw in an orig WW2 holster and 100 rounds of Canadian (or CIA) 9mm SMG ammo. #0 Prince St. store is still in business as Potomic Arms (regular retail shop) and #10 Prince is the buliding up the street, where YOH moved when they became Interarmco. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-30-2002, 12:55 AM	#1
kenfromalaska User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Alaska Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	An Oddball Shooter? Or Rarity (Not) I sold my last two Lugers in 1989 (minty Krieghoff and Simson), got rid of my books, acessories, etc and moved on, ending up here in Alaska where fortuitously I work in a major league gun shop. All my Lugers then were impeccable, all collector grade etc, nothing oddball.... You dont see a lot of Lugers up here in the Land of only 600,000 odd souls. The other day, however, I snagged one. Its a 1916 Erfurt, stamped Germany on both sides of the frame rails, 60% bluing, all numbers matching....but.... The barrel...its 7.65. It has no proofs, no numbers, no nothing...just a subtly differnt blue...and... Its crooked...the front sight, which looks straight, is canted off to the right. Now this led me to beleive that some numbnuts screwed a new barrel in...but could this be an orignal? Shouldnt a Germany marked frame have no date on the breech in the 7.65 cal? Or ????? Anyway, I am ready to rebarrel it to 9 mm, but now I am thinking.....??? The ultimate goal was to have TLSS job, but what if its orignal? Now I would be stuck with a 7.65 that I cant shoot! I gave up that non shooting stuff years ago... Any ideas???? <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" />

08-30-2002, 01:04 AM	#2
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Which gun shop in Anc do you work in? Being from that neck of the woods I probably have been there.

08-30-2002, 01:20 AM	#3
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh, yeh! Forgot to add that you shouldn't worry about your pistol being "original". Erfurt did not produce a luger model chambered for the 7.65 cal. But then, you as a collector of impeccable collector grade Krieghoffs and Simpsons knew that, didn't you?

08-30-2002, 09:48 AM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Following WWI many military Lugers were shipped to the US and sold by sporting goods stores. I have an ad from Hudson Sporting Goods in NY that advertises a "GRADE No. 2 Genuine Luger Auto. Pistols, 30 Cal. and 9 m/m, blue finish, 4 inch barrel. They are in perfect condition and guaranteed. Some of these are better than the new ones that are being made today. OUR SPECIAL PRICE $19.75" "GRADE No. 2 - Luger Auto., 9 m/m, with 6 inch, also a few with 8 inch barrels. In fine used condition; exceptional value. SPECIAL PRICE $24.85" These surplus military pistols would have had the GERMANY export stamp, and apparently they had already rebarreled some to .30 cal. Some want to lump these pistols in with the commercial pistols of the period, but as can be seen from the ads they were nothing but surplus military Lugers sold commercially.

08-30-2002, 10:44 AM	#7
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Click on to the "Owner's Corner" and take a look at my 1914 DWM marked "Germany." This one came straight from the battle field and was left entirely unchanged. It was exported with a holster, tool, and spare magazine. However, many were rebarreled and altered in many ways.

08-30-2002, 11:49 AM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 771 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	Following the war, large numbers of military pistols were re-worked for export with "Germany" being stamped on the guns in various places. In the early - mid 1920's, DWM also made commercial pistols that carry a military-style serial number (suffix letter) but stamped in the commercial manner. The Finnish contract pistols came from these guns. Many of the military re-works were rebarreled in .30 caliber. Also, many of the new production DWM pistols were in .30 caliber. The quality of the reworks varied tremendously and it was during this period that the Luger gained a reputation for poor quality. I have a book written by Julian Hatcher and published in 1927, IIRC. His comments on the quality of many Lugers being imported then are harsh. My father owned numerous Lugers during that time period and, while his were top quality, he often commented on the poor reputation of the Luger in the years between the wars. It sounds like you may have gotten one of the guns that wasn't done so well. I've owned a commercial DWM .30 Luger of the suffix letter series that was both reliable and extremely accurate. I have a reworked Erfurt with the date removed that is as good as the DWM and I have a "Frankenschloss" rework of about 1939 vintage that's based on a first issue Navy, altered, and while I've not shot it, the workmanship is excellent. My E. German rework that Hugh put a 6" .30 barrel on is rapidly becoming my favorite shooter. I like the .30 Luger cartridge but I reload for it. If you don't reload, then rebarreling to 9mm is the way for you to go IMO.

08-30-2002, 12:26 PM	#9
kenfromalaska User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Alaska Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Garfield: <strong>Oh, yeh! But then, you as a collector of impeccable collector grade Krieghoffs and Simpsons knew that, didn't you?</strong><hr></blockquote> Yes actually I did.

08-30-2002, 12:33 PM	#10
kenfromalaska User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Alaska Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK, now not having the advantage of my books anymore can I assume that the factors against this being original are the abscense of proofs and the crooked barrel? Are there any lists of rework numbers or refernces like that? To me a post war rework (ie 20s) would make me leave it alone, if done by some wrench jockey up here in the wilds, I will either straighten or rebarrel and get one of them fancy TLSS jobs! <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-30-2002, 07:00 PM	#11
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Edward, All the Lugers sold by Ye Olde Hunter in the 1950's were never designated 1950 Commercials and that has been almost 50 years ago so apparently time has nothing to do with it. Maybe Luger collectors 50 or 60 years from now will be calling the recent Russian imports 1990 or 2000 Commercials. In an A.F. Stoger ad of the period, they proudly proclaim their Luger pistol in this manner: "Here is the real Luger---the same high-grade pistol that was turned out before the war---. Additionally they add: "Do not confuse this Luger with the rebuilt army Lugers---."

08-30-2002, 07:38 PM	#13
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 771 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	"Ye Olde Hunter" was Sam Cumming's commercial outlet for state-side sales. The store front was at 10 Prince Street, Alexandria, VA. The building was on pilings, IIRC, because you went up stairs to reach the first floor and down a hallway at least 25 or 30 feet long before ascending a long set of stairs to the second floor. On one of my visits there in the early 1960's, that hallway was lined by glass display cases. In those cases was the largest number of Lugers I've ever seen in one place.... placed as close together as possible and easily numbering 150 or more. Possibly many more. At the time it seemed to me that they had every date, maker and combination of markings possible! That's when an Artillery was bringing $39.95 and the standard model only $29.95! I'm sure that someday, 2002 will be remembered as the "good ol' days" too. The past was nice but today and tomorrow is what we have to work with.

08-30-2002, 08:14 PM	#14
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Doubs, If I remember correctly, you could buy either the 4, 6, or 8 inch barrel Luger at an increased cost for the longer barrels. No distinction was made as to model or variation.

08-30-2002, 09:33 PM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 771 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	Johnny, as I recall, the Artillery was offered at $39.95 and the standard 4" barrel model at $10 less. I really don't remember a 6" barrel being offered but that doesn't mean it wasn't.... only that I can't remember. LOL Somewhere I have an issue of the American Rifleman with a Ye Olde Hunter ad in it for the Lugers and when I run across it I'll post a picture.

08-31-2002, 01:03 AM	#16
kenfromalaska User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Alaska Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The serial number on my little gem is 1905.Any significance to that...??? Looks like Im gonna buy Luger books again. Fortunately we have a second hand bookstore here with a lot of them.

08-31-2002, 03:48 AM	#17
kenfromalaska User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Alaska Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by tacfoley: <strong>Dear Mr Kenfromalaska - 1905 what? If you are implying that the number alone has a mystic date-attributable significance, then my byf42 [#808n] must be very old indeed......On the other hand, my 1918 DWM [#5248c] hasn't been made yet. BTW - do any of the other 599,999 folks there have any Lugers, or are you a lone voice in the [very large] wilderness? tacfoley in sunny UK with 66,999,999 other people, not one of whom is a Luger collector any more.</strong><hr></blockquote> The serial number is just 1905...thats it.....does it ahve any meaning in the context of a 1916 Erfurt with a crooked 7.65 barrel and export markings....??? [img]wink.gif[/img]

08-31-2002, 12:46 PM	#19
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 771 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	Tom, as I recall there was a large chainlink fence around the building and some rather impressive ordnance sitting there..... mortars, field guns and such. It was an interesting place to visit.

08-31-2002, 01:02 PM	#20
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kenfromalaska: The short answer to your question is, "no".