Your Favorite P-08 Luger

[Luke]

Probably not my favorite, but one of my most interesting: A 1914 DWM military Luger WITHOUT a stock lug. No, it has not been ground off.

Many of the collectors with whom I have spoken have never even heard of a 1914 w/o stock lug, but it is clearly documented in Still's book "Imperial Lugers" along with a picture of an example.

The one I have is not in great condition, but it is a completely honest Luger which has never been boosted or altered as far as I can tell.

Because this model is fairly rare, I thought about having it restored, but a couple of experienced collectors convinced me to leave it in its natural state. Guess I'll do that.

Luke

[josef]

They say you never forget your first, and although this is not my best one of few I have, it is the first. Dug this in a drained lake in the former Czechoslovakia years ago. Right off I was fascinated how well it was preserved, especially the handles. It got me into P08 collecting then and there, sold much of my militaria collection to finance my future purchases. It's just one of my favorites now. I would love to know what make this is, but no markings are decipherable. The next Spring I went back, dug out a P38 along with this magazine, which still has rounds in it. Not beautiful, but it was my first, and it's great to display under glass legally in this country. <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

[Luke]

Great picture and story, Josef ! Thanks.

Luke

[Dwight Gruber]

Josef,

Check the profile of the back of the frame. From the photo it looks like it may have the Mauser "hump", instead of being perfectly vertical. If so, it narrows down the origin of your delightful relic quite a bit.

--Dwight

[Stevie]

My favorite P08? I only have two and I like them both. The favorite I guess would be my 42-42 Mauser. Made out 3 Mauser lugers(judging the matching #'s on the subassemblys), this pistol is a perfect shooter. Mechanicly good as new, bright bore, reblued in the best communest style. Jam free and not ammo picky, always locks back the toggle. Its reliability has astounded me.

[Krieger89]

Seems as if the luger has different variations likeness to them you always find your favorite even though it might not beyour best.

[Doubs]

I'd have to choose my Erfurt "Commercial" Luger in .30 caliber. It was obtained in a trade and was first owned by my father. It's a completely matching pistol except for the barrel which is 3 7/8 inch. The date was also removed during the rework which was nicely done. It has been completely reliable and my father realy liked it. Now it has passed to me. I have a fondness for the 7.65 cartridge and the family connection makes this one special.

[John St]

1940 42 Mauser.
It shoots reliable.
It shoots in one hole at 25 yards.
No jams, ever, with Gecco, Federal, Winchester 9mm Hardball or Silvertips.
Bore is unsightfully pitted, but more accurate than any other handgun I have owned.
The forum director put my report about reliability and function and accuracy on some other "general forum."
If you don't see this message on this WWII Luger Forum, I'll know why.

[Heydrich]

&gt;&gt;The Luger is more of a high-end target shooter's firearm than a soldier's sidearm. The K98 rifle is another example of the irrational nostalgia for traditional, out-dated weapons the Germans harbored. What a contradiction: the modern blitzkreig coupled with antiquated and expensive small arms.&lt;&lt;

It is very important to remember that the German Nazis were the most hopeless romantics of the 20th century. Their chosen weapons reflected this. Look at the endemic romantic nature of the leading National Socialists: They loved to wear swords and daggers, as well as march around in capes while bearing medieval banners. Goering once showed up for a staff meeting dressed as a medieval warrior bearing a spear. They also had to of been the most hardcore conservatives of the century, pining for the time of the romantic knights and overlords of Medieval Europe. Even with modern machinery available, they insisted that the laborers of the Autobahn for the first year used “good old fashioned manual labor” such as with picks and shovels. I have often speculated that this is one of the reasons that the Nazis were so messed up in the head: they were romantic fools who lived in another age.

[Ron Wood]

Doubs,
You are so lucky to have a Luger that was owned by your father. I do not have that inheritance, but my dad took me to buy my first Luger. It has long since gone the way of trades that I wish I could take back, but the memories remain.

I have a hard time picking out my favorite Luger since all early Lugers possess a quality that surpass most (I almost said "any") modern day firearm. All grip safety Lugers are of special interest to me, so I guess my favorite would be the 1902 "Fat Barrel" American Eagle, but it is followed very closely by the 1900 US Test American Eagle, the 1902 Carbine, the early 1900 Swiss with unrelieved frame and flat button magazine, and the 1908 Luger in all its variations...etc, etc.

I am far too fond of all early Lugers to narrow down my favorites, so I guess I have to be like tacfoley and say that any Luger that goes BANG is my favorite...just as long as it was not made after 1918.

[Doubs]

Ron, the few firearms I inherited from my father are special and will always be so to me. Pop liked the .30 caliber Lugers and owned several over his lifetime.... including a Stoeger "Loaded" and "Safe" model. Of them all, he especially liked the 1906's 4 3/4" tapered barrel and often said that it was his favorite model. I tend to agree.

[ken d]

When you walk into a display and your eyes automaticly go to one gun I have to consider it to be my favorite; 1902 Carbine.
Regards Ken D

[Big Norm]

Heydrich,
I think that you missed a lot in your history lessons. Germany was the economic power of the early 1900's. It surpassed Britian sometime around 1905. At the end of WW1, anything of value was stripped from Germany by the victorious allies.

Hitler, inspite all his unquestioned evilness, did do some good things in his early years. The Autobaun was one of them. The idea was not so much to build a modern road but rather to put people to work. Maybe you read about the Great Depression? President Roosevelt had the same idea when he built the Hoover Dam. Actually, if it was not for WW2, the suffering of the world during the Great Depression would have lasted longer than it did. Unemployment was still around 14% in America in 1940 inspite of two years of military build up in anticipation of the war.

Peoples of Europe all have a greater appreciation for history than the typical American. You sound like the world began with cowboys and indians. As far as the Midievil rememberances go, the next time that you have the TV on, turn off the cartoons and look at other channels. England, Italy as well as Canada still enjoy the costumes of that various eras along with other countries. Capes, swords and plumed military hats are still worn in certain South American and European countries on certain occasions. American marine officers still wear swords and capes on certain occasions. All American military branches have impressive fancy dress uniforms that they wear on special occasions.

The Luger and the K98 were, and still are, splendid weapons. The main reason that the Luger was used in WW2 was that the Germans had warehouses filled with them. The Luger was obsoleted around 1938-9 by a better weapon called the P-38. Maybe you heard of it? But a war and higher priorities interfered with the necessary mass production. Maybe you didn't know, but the American military and maybe the British military were using bolt action rifles at the beginning of WW2.
Big Norm

[wterrell]

Big Norm is totally correct. The German military was in the process of modernization, but the events precipitated by Hitler hindered the total replacement of the Luger, which was considered obsolete.
The National Socialists did not let tradition hinder them. They ushered the world into the modern age.

[Doubs]

I agree with Norm on almost all points. Our Army did adopt the Garand in 1936 while the Marines insisted on keeping their version of the 1903 Springfield. The Marines learned on Guadalcanal that the Garand was the better battle rifle and moved swiftly to replace the '03. In the book "Shots Fired in Anger" (an excellent book, BTW) the author points out that the Garand proved to be the more reliable weapon and if the gas system failed could be manually operated more quickly than the bolt of an '03. The soldiers in the Philippines and on Wake Island were armed with the '03 rifle when the war broke out so it's true that many US servicemen entered the war with bolt actions but the Garand quickly became the standard. We were the only major power to use semi-automatic rifles as standard issue and it gave us a tremendous advantage in a fight.

The English began the war with the #1 Mk III rifle and slowly replaced it with the #4 rifle which was officially adopted in 1939.

[mm]

Have to disagree with Big Norm, Doubs, and Wes. First Doubs, what about the millions of SVT-38s and SVT-40s that were issued by the "major power" USSR during the war?

Concerning Nazi (read Hitler) anti-modernist romanticism and its interference with industrial mondernization, I refer to the extensive writings of the architech of war-time armaments industrialization, Albert Speer and his view of Hitler's antimodernization:

"...antimodernity prevented Hitler from approaching victory: thatched roofs, old-fashioned ideas about artisan manufacture, division of the land into individual farms - all these things were contrary to the rational exploitation of German production not only in practice but far more in their ideolgical background. When I began my work as armaments minister in 1942, I kept coming up against such hinderences more and more... romantic ideology [prevented women from working]in the armaments industry during the war...Hitler opposed the tommy gun because he said it made soldiers cowardly and made close combat impossible...[he] rejected the jet fighter because he said its extreme speed was an obstacle to fighting..distruted attempts at developing an atom bomb by means of nuclear fission ...[Hitler called such efforts in private conversation] a spawn of Jewish pseudoscience. ["Infilration", Albert Speer,1985 Macmillan, pg 83]

Yes, I would say the Nazi's romanticism and antimodernism was a hinderence and the continued manufacture of the Luger in 41 &42 proof of that. mm

[Big Norm]

Doubs,
you are right, the Garand gave us a great advantage in the war. But Roosevelt was interested in defeating Hitler first and then the Japanese. So the army got the Garand first. Then the marines in the Pacific. Don't think that for a moment the marines were happy with this situation.

MM,
you are correct that Hitler was a romantic. But the German army had a light weight machine gun that was very flexible. Hitler felt that the foot soldier would waste too much ammo if he had a semi auto rifle. The German semi auto was developed in secret and arrived too late to make a difference. But when Hilter saw the finished product, he jumped on it. The jet was initially developed as a medium range bomber. Hitler wanted a fighter plane to support his fast moving tank warfare which was a novel idea at the beginning of the war. So Hitler stalled until the jet fighter was developed much later and too late.

Somehow we have to divide the war into two parts. The first of which were great successes by the German army and Hitlers gambling and the second part where Hitler was a little crazy and very irrational. Compound the second part with the meddling of Hitlers friend, the coke headed Gorring, and you get defeat as well as Spears late war impression of Hitler. To attempt to blend these two parts can lead to a misinterpretation of the extent of Hitlers romanticizm.

I believe that the dividing line between these two parts was the attempted assasination in, I think but may be wrong, the Wolfs Layer. This is where the German army tried, unsuccessfully, to blow him up during a staff meeting. After that, Hitler was totally screwed up. But the Germans were still frightened of him.
Big Norm

[Jack Lawman]

Big Norm,
Excellent synopsis. I have a point and a question.

Point: I think Hitler started out a little crazy and then got a lot crazy during the second part of the war. I do realize that one man's crazy is another man's genius, but in my opinion Hitler began his political career as a beneficial megalomaniac. At the outset, he did have the best interests of greater Germany in mind. As the war progressed and his megalomania grew increasingly introverted, his decisions grew ever more irrational and disastrous. In any case, the man was sick from the get-go.

Question: Regarding the Marine transition to the Garand, the oral tradition passed to me by numerous WWII vets (NONE of them were Pacific Marines, however) was that the Marines did not want the Garand until they witnessed its effectiveness in battle. The stated reason for this is that Marine brass valued marksmanship and bought into the whole wasting ammo philosophy. Do you know if any Marine brass lobbied for the Garand prior to Guadalcanal?

Jack

[Edward Tinker]

Not to quible, but I wouldn't say it was Roosevelt that wanted the European war over faster, it was Churchill, there were several meetings and it was decided that Germany would be taken over first, and Japan would be contained, then defeated.

Ed

[Doubs]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by mm:
<strong>Have to disagree with Big Norm, Doubs, and Wes. First Doubs, what about the millions of SVT-38s and SVT-40s that were issued by the "major power" USSR during the war? mm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The standard issue rifle for the Soviet army was the Moisin-Nagant in all of it's variations. The SVT-38 & 40 were never issued in the numbers you suggest nor did they ever supplant the MN's as the Garand did the Springfield. In fact, the SVT's proved to be less than reliable under battlefield conditions which no doubt limited their issue. The first truly successful semi-auto rifle issued by the Soviets was the SKS which saw very limited action at the end of the war and became obsolete in the early 1950's when the AK-47 started replacing almost everything else.