1923 Finnish Luger by DWM

Merganzer1 · 04-15-2004, 11:31 AM

I'm looking for information. Back in 1987 a batch of Lugers were brought into the U.S. by Century Internation Arms Inc. They were described as "Pistol, Luger Model 1923, Finnish, Cal. 7.65 Par. Mine is serial number 3862. It had black plastic grips, a 4 inch barrel and DWM logo. Marks include a "N" with a crown on top and the letters "SA" in a box. Can anyone tell me anything about this gun?. Thanks, Vic

John Sabato · 04-15-2004, 12:12 PM

Welcome to the Lugerforum Vic.

I have a few minutes so let me help...I guess it really depends on how much you want to know.

Finland ordered approximately 8000 M1923 7.65mm Lugers from DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionfabriken) between the years 1923 and 1930. Many were refurbished at a later time and some were converted to 9mm and ended up being parkerized. The barrels used during refurbishment were made by Tikka, and were quite good barrels.

Your black plastic grips are not original to the gun. They were issued with wooden grips, and many had a brass disk inletted into the right grip where army unit markings were stamped. The black plastic grips on your gun may actually be Mauser WW2 production during the 1941-42 time frame and if in good condition are worth about $100-$150 to collectors of such things.

The "SA" is the Finnish Army marking. The Crown over "N" is a commercial manufacturing proof.

Most of these guns were in well used condition by the time they were released for public sales, but a few survived in very good condition.

This information was sourced from: "The Luger Book" by John Walter, pages 112-115. This book should be available in your local public library system, and is frequently offered on ebay.

I hope this was helpful...

Lugerdoc · 04-16-2004, 08:55 AM

Vic, To add to John's comments above: The M23 DWM commerical lugers sent to Finland, originally all had 7.65x95mm barrels and standard checkered wood grips. At the same time, they ordered 5000 WW1 surplus LPO8 flat board wood shoulder stocks. They then produced their own holsters with straps on the back for carrying the detached stock. With the beginning of WW2, they removed most of the unit ID discs that they had added to the right grip panel of some of these lugers and rebarreled many of them with the 5" 9mm Tikka barrels, so they would fit the, then current issue, Lathi holsters. Many of these holster, were also equipted with the extra straps for the luger LPO8 stocks, which would also fit the Finnish Lathi. TH

Merganzer1 · 04-16-2004, 12:12 PM

Thank you guys, I really appreciate the information. Now I have a tough one for you: Back in the late 1960's there was a man named Ken Lane. He had addresses all over Europe. He sold Luger slab stocks. The one I bought was shipped by Parcel Post from Liechtenstein (near Switzerland). It has no marks of any kind. It was in "new" condition. I've never seen another stock, so I can't compare mine to figure out if it is an original or a fake. I understand that Lichtenstein was famous for making all kinds of fakes and I did hear a story that the man ended up in jail. I figure the stock is a post WWII fake. Do original slab stocks have identifying markings? Thanks, Vic

John Sabato · 04-16-2004, 12:59 PM

Merganzer1,

Please check your private messages by clicking on the "my profile" link at the top of this (or any discussion) page.

Pete Ebbink · 04-16-2004, 08:29 PM

Hello Tom,

Is this the Finnish rig you were referring...?

Photo/page copy is from E. Bender's first, small holster book on page 39 :

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/finnishrig_large.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/finnishrig_large.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Lugerdoc · 04-17-2004, 09:23 AM

Pete, Yes that's the basic model. The early ones will only accommodate the 4" barrel luger, whereas later ones will hold both the Lahti and the 5" rebarrelled PO8. TH

Merganzer1 · 04-19-2004, 03:29 PM

I had hopes that the members of this forum would be helpful, but you boys are fantastic. Now you make me think I wasted my youth collecting Remington's. Thanks, Vic

ken d · 04-19-2004, 08:27 PM

Merganzer1:
I did some business with Ken Lane back in the sixties both stocks and tools. On multiple (20) orders of the stocks he shipped them one at a time over a four month period. Packages were marked as birthday presents. Neither the tools or stocks were original all were repros. As I remember the stocks were $14.00 each

Regards Ken D

Merganzer1 · 04-20-2004, 03:34 PM

Ken D: Thanks, I figured they were reproductions when the package was marked "Souvenir". Thanks, Vic

bigbill · 04-20-2004, 09:20 PM

just a note from Ontario: we can purchase the Lahti P08 with 5" barrels for $600 Cdn. from some of the local gunshops. bigbill

04-15-2004, 11:31 AM	#1
Merganzer1 User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Leominster, Mass. U.S.A. Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1923 Finnish Luger by DWM I'm looking for information. Back in 1987 a batch of Lugers were brought into the U.S. by Century Internation Arms Inc. They were described as "Pistol, Luger Model 1923, Finnish, Cal. 7.65 Par. Mine is serial number 3862. It had black plastic grips, a 4 inch barrel and DWM logo. Marks include a "N" with a crown on top and the letters "SA" in a box. Can anyone tell me anything about this gun?. Thanks, Vic

04-15-2004, 12:12 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum Vic. I have a few minutes so let me help...I guess it really depends on how much you want to know. Finland ordered approximately 8000 M1923 7.65mm Lugers from DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionfabriken) between the years 1923 and 1930. Many were refurbished at a later time and some were converted to 9mm and ended up being parkerized. The barrels used during refurbishment were made by Tikka, and were quite good barrels. Your black plastic grips are not original to the gun. They were issued with wooden grips, and many had a brass disk inletted into the right grip where army unit markings were stamped. The black plastic grips on your gun may actually be Mauser WW2 production during the 1941-42 time frame and if in good condition are worth about $100-$150 to collectors of such things. The "SA" is the Finnish Army marking. The Crown over "N" is a commercial manufacturing proof. Most of these guns were in well used condition by the time they were released for public sales, but a few survived in very good condition. This information was sourced from: "The Luger Book" by John Walter, pages 112-115. This book should be available in your local public library system, and is frequently offered on ebay. I hope this was helpful... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-16-2004, 08:55 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Vic, To add to John's comments above: The M23 DWM commerical lugers sent to Finland, originally all had 7.65x95mm barrels and standard checkered wood grips. At the same time, they ordered 5000 WW1 surplus LPO8 flat board wood shoulder stocks. They then produced their own holsters with straps on the back for carrying the detached stock. With the beginning of WW2, they removed most of the unit ID discs that they had added to the right grip panel of some of these lugers and rebarreled many of them with the 5" 9mm Tikka barrels, so they would fit the, then current issue, Lathi holsters. Many of these holster, were also equipted with the extra straps for the luger LPO8 stocks, which would also fit the Finnish Lathi. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-16-2004, 12:59 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Merganzer1, Please check your private messages by clicking on the "my profile" link at the top of this (or any discussion) page. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-17-2004, 09:23 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Pete, Yes that's the basic model. The early ones will only accommodate the 4" barrel luger, whereas later ones will hold both the Lahti and the 5" rebarrelled PO8. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-16-2004, 12:12 PM	#4
Merganzer1 User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Leominster, Mass. U.S.A. Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you guys, I really appreciate the information. Now I have a tough one for you: Back in the late 1960's there was a man named Ken Lane. He had addresses all over Europe. He sold Luger slab stocks. The one I bought was shipped by Parcel Post from Liechtenstein (near Switzerland). It has no marks of any kind. It was in "new" condition. I've never seen another stock, so I can't compare mine to figure out if it is an original or a fake. I understand that Lichtenstein was famous for making all kinds of fakes and I did hear a story that the man ended up in jail. I figure the stock is a post WWII fake. Do original slab stocks have identifying markings? Thanks, Vic

04-16-2004, 08:29 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Tom, Is this the Finnish rig you were referring...? Photo/page copy is from E. Bender's first, small holster book on page 39 : <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/finnishrig_large.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/finnishrig_large.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

04-19-2004, 03:29 PM	#8
Merganzer1 User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Leominster, Mass. U.S.A. Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I had hopes that the members of this forum would be helpful, but you boys are fantastic. Now you make me think I wasted my youth collecting Remington's. Thanks, Vic

04-19-2004, 08:27 PM	#9
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Merganzer1: I did some business with Ken Lane back in the sixties both stocks and tools. On multiple (20) orders of the stocks he shipped them one at a time over a four month period. Packages were marked as birthday presents. Neither the tools or stocks were original all were repros. As I remember the stocks were $14.00 each Regards Ken D

04-20-2004, 03:34 PM	#10
Merganzer1 User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Leominster, Mass. U.S.A. Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ken D: Thanks, I figured they were reproductions when the package was marked "Souvenir". Thanks, Vic

04-20-2004, 09:20 PM	#11
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	just a note from Ontario: we can purchase the Lahti P08 with 5" barrels for $600 Cdn. from some of the local gunshops. bigbill