DWM, military luger, year made?

[50megawatts]

Hello. I recently bought Kenyon's 'Lugers at Random' to learn about Lugers before possibly finding one for my own. A co-worker lent me his Luger to study. I've determined that its a DWM, 'New Model', 1908 type Luger with matching s/numbers which, according to their placement, indicate that it is a military gun. The s/n is 2577. Among the markings on the under-side of the barrel are '9mm' and 'made in germany'. Looking at the gun from the front, there appears to be the letter 'k' in script directly under the s/n. Also, one of the proof marks (a bird shape) has a '63' under it. There is not date stamped above the chamber on the receiver. How can I determine what year the gun was manufactured? Are there any other conclusions that can be drawn about the gun from the information I've given? Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Thor]

The Eagle over 63 is a WWII (Mauser) marking. The No date and K suffix COULD be an indication of a 1920 Commercial as does the MADE IN GERMANY export stamp. The 63 adds quite a bit of question IMO. What are the three markings on the right receiver front? How about left receiver front, 4 digit serial here or Crown over N? Where is the 63 proof located? Any pictures would help too!

[Lugerdoc]

Just to confuse collectors, the last batch of Russian imports that I obtained were WW2 Mauser PO8s, that the importer had removed the chamber date and replaced the center toggle link with a DWM. This was probably done to make them legal for sale in Germany. If a recent import, generally the importers markings will be under the barrel. TomH

[50megawatts]

Thor/Lugerdoc,
Thanks for responding. I don't have access to a digital camera, but another post by JimS included pictures, like the one shown in this link: http://jlstuht.freewebspace.com/luge...uger8002-5.jpg
The markings on my gun are identical to the four shown, assuming the one on the far left is the 'Eagle over 63', as the one on the left on my gun is clearly the 'Eagle over 63'. Left front receiver is 4 digit s/n, 2577, not 'crown over N'. Proof on left side of barrel (near receiver) is what appears to be a variation of 'Eagle over 63'. One more thing that I find interesting...on the underside of the barrel, near the end and before the '9mm made in germany' mark, are what appear to be the letters,'Col Swan VI'. Some of the letters are worn, so it could be somthing entirely different. I am fairly sure the 'Swan' and 'V' are correct, though. I hope this helps. What, again, do you think the 'k' script, in from and directly above the trigger guard, means? It doesn't appear to me that the date stamp above the chamber on the receiver has been removed, but this is the first Luger I've ever examined. I look forward to your comments.

[Thor]

Perhaps the "Col Swan VI" MIGHT be "CAL ST AL VT" which is an import marking

[50megawatts]

I'll get a better magniying glass to read underside of barrel. Is the 'k' script the same as the K date that some posters refer too? If so, how do I know what year applies to each script?

[Leon DeSpain]

Hi 50megawatts,

The "K" date that is referred to, as it applies to Third Reich Lugers, means the Mauser produced Luger was made in 1934. The Germans used secret codes for the dates on Lugers and other arms in 1934 and 1935. The code was "G" for 1935. In 1936 the Germans started stamping the entire 4 digit date on the armaments that had been previously "coded".

I am not really familiar with pre-Third Reich Lugers so I can't comment on the rest of your question. Sorry.

Regards, Leon

[Ron Wood]

50megawatts,
The "k" script under the serial number is not the same as a "K" date. The "k" script is part of the serial number and indicates an increment of 10,000. K being the 11th letter of the alphabet, a k script would equate to 110,000 - so in effect the serial number of your Luger is 112,577. The "K" date is an upper case K stamped over the chamber and as Leon indicated is code for 1934. Also, like Leon, I am not really up to speed on Lugers unless they were produced before 1918 so I can't be of much further help.

[saxman]

Okay, mine is 4084h. So, I guess that could be said to be #84084. A nice little play on numbers, eh? It's a DWM, so what year would this be?

[Edward Tinker]

All depends on when it was made. They made over 140,000 in 1916 during WW1, so it depends on who made it, what year and then you can figrue out the year. If it is a commercial, then "generally" they run in a consecutive series, until right before WW2, then their numbering changed.

So Sax, you have to go by proof / acceptance marks on them and if they made them in blocks of 10,000, then it depends on the year they made them. They didn't start each year at block 1, as sometimes they weren't done with last years s block for example, if you look at the charts in Jan's books, they really amaze you how some of the blocks were kind of weirdly marked.

my 2 cents, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

[saxman]

I guess that must be part of the fun of collecting them - doing the research to find out what you have. In my case, I've been on the bubble about just getting rid of it, and I think I will. There's a show this weekend and I'm helping on a table, so I think I'll shop it around and see what I can get for it. Been wanting a Hi-Power anyway.

[Gun Boss]

I'm far more of a browser than a poster, and this is my first posting. Hope it's in an appropriate place. I have my first Luger - purchased from an individual who claimed it was a vet bringback. There are no marks whatsoever on the gun, and no indication there ever were any, except on the right side of the receiver there are two small ground depressions on the forward end. Ground depressions and the entire rest of the gun have a uniform pale blue finish. Beneath the barrel, top of receiver, toggle, etc are aparently unaltered and unmarked. BBl is 4", unmarked. Went over the external with a glass w/o finding markings, and haven't disassembled it yet. no stock lug, seems consistent with P-08 commercial, per "The Luger Handbook (Davis)". Is this a "sneak"? Any info would be helpful on it. I've enjoyed reading the info here. thanks.

[Edward Tinker]

Hello Gun Boss and welcome!

Generally a "sneak" (a term made by dealers & some collectors specifically for some of the DWM switching over to Mauser production, and weren't marked on the toggle, someone correct me if I am wrong).

So if yours has no markings, I would venture to say it is one fo the ones that were put together after the war and so "skipped" the normal proofing / acceptance process. Unless it has been "wiped" clean during a gun-smif re-blue?

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Gun Boss,

Ground depressions on the right side of the reciever tell me that inspectors' marks and proofs have been ground off. without more information there's no idea as to which marks they might have been.

Knowing what parts might be (or might not be) marked on the gun's interior will be useful. Is there indeed no serial number stamped on the gun?

--Dwight

[50megawatts]

Thanks to all for posting. I consider myself lucky to have stumbled onto this forum. Unfortunately, had to give Luger back to co-worker today after one week of studying it. The main think I learned is that the more I learned about it (mostly through these posts and 'Lugers at Randon')the less I knew about it. Now I need to find one of my own to study.
One last thing about DWM s/n 2577...
This gun had a very black finish, not bluish, the mag had no markings and a plastic end, and the grips were also black plastic with groves running long-ways, from top to bottom. Are there after-market grips/mags for Lugers or could these, especially the grips, be original equipment? This gun appeared to be in excellent shape and I can't imagine why original grips would have needed replacing w/plastic.

[Ron Wood]

50megawatts,
I responded to your private message. Please check it by going to "my profile" at the top of the page. Your friend's Luger is a re-worked, refinished, mis-matched import with Russian replacement grips.