Info needed on my "new" Vickers

[Hugh]

Here are pics of the Dutch Vickers I recently bought on Auction Arms.The frame is SN8007, while the receiver/bbl & toggle are SN4706. Both numbers are in the correct SN range for Vickers Dutch Indies guns.

Can anyone interpret the Farsi(?) Siamese(?)markings on the rear of the frame? Any speculation on how they got on a dutch Luger?

From the sellers description, I bought this gun with the intention of having Thor restore it. However, upon receiving it, I am having second thoughts. It has no deep pits, just medium to heavy freckling and probably 70% original blue, although the bore is not to good, rough and poor rifling with no deep pitting. Due to its relatively rarity, should I leave it alone?

So, I will take a vote of the Forum members, to leave "as is" or "restore"? Please voice your opinion.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hey Hugh,

What makes this a Portuguese Vickers..?

I thought this one was a true Vickers that got some Siamese markings along the way...???

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Hugh]

Pete,

Its a "Portuguese Vickers" cause I had my head up my a-- when I typed that!!!
I have made the appropiate changes! "Farsi" or "Siamese", which is it? And I still would like to know how they got there?

[policeluger]

My Farsi from my childhood is a bit rusty, but my numbers are real good, after all these years, but this does not look Farsi to my.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Hugh,

I thought it was that pitcher of Texas iced tea...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[drbuster]

Hugh, Looks like a pretty good looking Vickers to me. I would leave it alone and treasure it! Also leave the grips alone, if you can force yourself to do that!

[George Anderson]

Hugh, the markings under the lanyard loop are certainly Thai or Siamese. I believe all the Mauser Siamese contract was completeed in 1936 and so dated. At first, I thought your piece was a mixed parts ringer, but then you have to look at the 1906 type frame and consider the chronology of the 30's and the National Socialists.

The only thing that makes sense is....first, disregard the grips. Somebody switched them. Second, the Japs took Indonesia in 1942 and captured all the Dutch Lugers. Subsequently the Japs made Thailand a protectorate or puppet (I believe I'm correct here). The Japs sent captured Dutch Lugers to the Thais as that was already an inventoried weapon for them.

The Thai markings you show above, are not all the same as those on my artillery, but damn near.

Check out the relationship between the Japs and Thais after the Jap conquest. This may lead to the answer. Hell, you may have one of the most interesting Lugers ever to surface. Can you back trace its coming to the States?

[Ron Wood]

I think that George has it pretty much dead-on. The marks are definitely Siamese. Please do not restore this piece. It is a survivor and possibly unique (until some bas#*@d decides to fake another one). If I wasn't on such a tight budget right now you might not have had the opportunity to own it! It is a great gun with a rich history that would be exciting to explore. Congratulations.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Hugh,

I, too, vote to do nothing but clean and polish her up a bit and enjoy a gun with some rare history.

In J. Walter's book, "The Luger Book" on pages 246-247; he mentions the 1936's contract of Masuer Banner P-08's and LP-08's that went into service for the Thailand police department.

Typical on these contract lugers is the stylized lion's head and three characters for an issue-number on the back of the frame, above the landyard staple.

Your gun has the stylized lion and three characters. Your's probably look a little different than those of George's luger...since the two guns would have a different set of issue-numbers.

Yours is very rare and interesting since it is a 1920's Dutch luger from Indonesia that found its way to Siam/Thailand...

Since the Siam Mauser contract occurred in the 1936's era, your luger may have found its way into Thai hands before WWII and the fall of the Dutch East Indies to the Japanese. Maybe it found its way there through regular channels of trade and commerce or via a black-market route...??? Just WAG's...

p.s. Cannot tell from the photo, but does your barrel have a "GS" barrel replacement date ? If yes, what is that date ? This date would date-stamp your Vickers luger being in Dutch/Indonesian control up to that date, at least.

Regards,

Pete.. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Hugh]

Pete,
In the picture of the top of the gun--you can barely see it--but there is a 1925 rework date on the top of the bbl.

Ron,

Shore glad yore on a "tight budget" rite now!! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

[Lugerdoc]

Hugh, I was told by the head of the Thai version of the FBI, that these were Thai Police markings. Year ago I purchase 10 DWM stipped frames with these marking, for $10 each, and used them to build up shooters. Since none of these were the grip safety type frames, yours was not one of them. TH

[Dwight Gruber]

Hugh,

Congratulations on having picked up a Vickers. They are really neat, I think everybody should own one. Well, at least 6,000 of us...

I agree about leaving well enough alone. Vickers--all Dutch Lugers--had a hard life, and were re-arsenaled often. The Thai marks just add to this. I would say that yours can be considered uniquely authentic.

Are there GS marks on it anywhere, and have you found out any marks inside the grips?

And, its about time for you to pick up your copy of "The Dutch Luger". If I haven't gotten the idea across yet, I'm thrilled for your acqusition.

--Dwight

[Hugh]

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Thanks for all the info, guys, looks like I have a "keeper" here!

I am afraid that Thor won't be getting his talented hands on this one. Its getting a good Clenzoil bath and then to bed in the safe.

Dwight, no marks inside the grips and no GS mark anywhere, just the 1925 rebarrel date. And, I have been thumbing through my Dutch Luger book all day!

[Vlim]

Hi,

The Siamese markings may have been placed there strategically to obscure an original Dutch inventory number.

As a large amount (some 80%) of the Dutch KNIL army were actually native folks, it's not so strange to find Dutch lugers in that area. Also, there have always been good ties between the Dutch and Siamese governments. During the early 20th century Dutch engineers undertook a number of water management projects in Thailand. Again, involvement of KNIL-staff is not unthinkable and my guess is that some people thought it wise to evade the new Indonesian government after 1949 and took their side-arms with them to Thailand, a country nearby that had good relationships with the Dutch.

Hugh:
It's interesting to check for traces of brass plate removal, either on the side or on the gripstrap. You're absolutely right about not restoring this piece. It's in a nice honest Dutch condition.

[Dwight Gruber]

Hugh,

Grips on Dutch Lugers are of some passing interest to me. In your experienced assessment, have these been with the gun for a long time, or are they apparent newer application? If they are original, I'd really like to see large, detailed photos of the fronts and backs.

--Dwight

[Hugh]

Dwight,

Actually, this pair of grips is a set that I had in my parts box that I put on the gun. They are a very crude pair that I don't think are original Dutch grips. I received the gun with only the right grip, which appears to be a standard 20LPI luger grip, well worn. It had a "27" stamped inside of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[the gunman]

Very interesting luger .Sure wish it was mine. I would just clean it up and enjoy a true find.

[Vlim]

Hugh,

Good grip choice. The Vickers were fitted out with quite crudely made grips.

My KNIL DWM came with one original DWM-grip and one coarse GS replacement, both had the full serial of the gun, including a GS-mark on the replacement.

[Hugh]

Gerben,

I took it apart and cleaned it with Cleanzoil last night. I cannot find any sign that there was a brass plate anywhere on the gun. There are no signs of solder remnants in the places where the tags were placed on the Dutch guns.

Hugh

[Hugh]

George,

I contacted the seller. He acquired the gun with a small collection that he bought from a friend. This friend had picked up the guns through the years and had no recollection of where the Vickers Luger came from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />