1920 DWM question

byf42 · 01-17-2004, 04:10 PM

Recently purchased a new addition to the obsession. Its 1920 chamber dated, with #31 proofs on the right side. serial number is 5340a matching throught. Couple of questions: No strawed parts, I am assuming its been reblued, but all the edges are still very sharp. It has what appears to be some type of three winged eagle stamped in front of the #31 proofs, and then another one on the barrel. The one that I cannot find anywhere is the one on the top of the barrel. It looks like a spider with the letter A underneath it, but its very small. I cannot find any other marks on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike

Edward Tinker · 01-17-2004, 05:14 PM

Mike, can you provide pictures, flatbed scans or digital?

It should be strawed, although sometimes hard to tell, unless they are obviously blued parts?

On the barrel is probably a weimar remark, but would have to see it first?

Ed

byf42 · 01-17-2004, 05:34 PM

Ed,
I will post pictures as soon as I can get my hands on a digital camera. Should be SUN in the A.M. The parts look blued. It's hard to tell by the things I have read just what exactly it is. I read that none were made in 1920, then read that some were made. Its all matching down to the grips. Lugeritis has got me in its grips my better half says.... Will post the pics. Thanks for the reply, and what a great tool this forum is for someone like myself. Thanks again.
Mike

Edward Tinker · 01-17-2004, 05:58 PM

I know for a fact that 1920 / 1921 Lugers were made, the catch is, that sometimes the 1920 isn't a date, but a property marking, and that makes it harder to tell. It might be a commerical or military that has been reworked and property marked 1920.

Sometimes it is hard to tell, but the tricks are the proofs, or other markings to determine if it is a 1920 or earlier gun. If you like the Weimar era, then look for Weimar Lugers by Jan Still, very much worth the money.

Ed

byf42 · 01-20-2004, 12:07 AM

Ed,
Did some research in previous posts, and on 03-16-03 saxman pictured a 1920 with a proof mark on the barrel.( has the carpet fiber in the picture) Mine is identical to that. The only difference is that mine has waffenamt ?SP? stamps in front of the 3 (#31) stamps on the right side of receiver, and on on the right side of the barrel. The numbers match, and the barrel has the same serial number along with the "a" block stamp as the receiver. Mine has no magazine safety, and no sear safety. I have truly gazed at that thing trying to see if it was ground on the receiver, but I cannot see it. The Waffenamt stamps are very crude and somewhat illegible. The digital camara I have access to will not focus in that close. The 35's for scanning are developing. It appears from the previous posts I have a 1920 rework. I purchased this for a shooter anyhow, and that it does very, very well. Thanks for reviewing my post, and taking the time to educate a new collector.

saxman · 01-20-2004, 01:44 PM

Yes, I was thinking that yours was like mine from your description. I also have the three #31 proofs on the receiver, but not the waffenampt marks. The question is whether these pistols were made during the Weimar era or earlier. Because they have the #31 proofs, it indicates to me that they were newly made in this period. Otherwise, the old proof marks would have been ground off and the new ones stamped. There is no evidence of any such work on my pistol, and I'm betting not on yours, either. I would love to find out exactly when it was made, but evidently that cannot be known. Must have been around 1920. Of course the 1920 mark is a property mark for the Weimar government. My pistol gets complicated because it has an upper half with the same serial number but a different suffix - frame is 4084h but barrel is 4084l. This may have been done for a later rework, or when the pistol was assembled if it was made up from parts. The finish on both elements is rust blue and looks exactly the same.

byf42 · 01-20-2004, 09:08 PM

I did some searching through the posts and observed the pic of yours. Maybe I overlooked the obvious, but did you identify the proof on the barrel? Mine has the same. I have examined my 1920 everyway I know how, and I cannot for the life of me see where it was ground down. I am just not convinced that it was. the date is in the same location where my 42's are stamped. I dont know if all matching with an "a" block makes any difference??? Anywho, its a great shooter piece. I have a 42 BYF with the black bakelite grips in a 98%+ condition with the 42 DLU holster in just as good a shape. Has 2 plastic bottom FXO mags and tool. Sits on the highest perch in the safe, but I seldom handle it. On the other hand the 1920 is always out. Even though its not a pristine example, its still a marvelous weapon. Shoots great, feeds reliable, and to me one of my prized pistols. A true piece of firearm history, and the bonus is I dont feel bad shooting it regularly. Although its awful tempting to give Thor a holler....

John Sabato · 01-21-2004, 07:35 AM

If you look at the gun from the muzzle end (Best taken apart for this event and double checked tobe unloaded, the curve of the forward part of the receiver should have a radius from the center of the bore that closely matches the circumference of the flange on the barrel. If the radius of the receiver seems to thin our near the top and be not a thick as it is to the left and right of the top, then the chances are VERY good that the curved surface of the top of the receiver over the chamber has been ground down to remove the previous chamber stamp.

Hope this helps.

saxman · 01-21-2004, 09:07 AM

John; I once thought the same, but found out (right here on the Forum) that while some were ground to remove old dates, the 'thinning' across the top was actually a design change. Since then, I've looked at a lot of Lugers at shows and seen this feature on most of them.

John Sabato · 01-21-2004, 09:47 AM

Could you please expand a little about this "design change" ...like when did it take place, what was it's function and what models are likely to be affected?

The reason I ask is that to grind down and change this curved surface would affect the virtually the entire top of the receiver not just the area over the chamber without making the grinding more obvious since the curve blends into the relieved corners of the top outside of the upper receiver.

Dwight Gruber · 01-21-2004, 11:09 AM

John,

Model 1900 Lugers have a round profile above the chamber. The 1906 model, and all thereafter, were ground with a slightly shallower, non-concentric curve. As to the reason, your guess is as good as mine.

And you are correct, the angle changes, very gently, where the angled flat portion of the receiver rails blend into the chamber. This is quite apparent if you examine the area closely with an eye to the change.

--Dwight

saxman · 08-25-2004, 08:05 PM

I believe I have solved my Luger. While cleaning it tonight after Sunday's shoot, I discovered the imprint of a unit mark on the inside of the front strap. On the outside, it's been neatly sanded off without a trace. The mark can't be read, but that's not important. The facts that the cannon and frame have different suffixes but match in old rust blue, the original sideplate was marked on the bottom in the commercial style, and it has the Eagle/AYA4 proofs on the right side, indicating a rework, had me puzzled and there didn't seem to be an answer for it. Now that I know about the old unit mark, it comes together. I now believe it was assembled from several guns after WWI, refinished and sold as a commercial, but in Germany, not for export, as it doesn't have Germany on it. All this must have happened in the '20s because of the old rust blue. How it got over here is anybody's guess, but I would imagine it had something to do with a G.I. So, how do you like my theory?

Edward Tinker · 08-25-2004, 08:12 PM

Sounds fair to me

Very possible, I have never looked for it, but have been told this happens (that you can see what the unit markings were from the inside).

Ed

saxman · 08-25-2004, 10:26 PM

It seems to me that only a government rebuild would assemble a cannon and frame with the same number but different suffixes, remove the unit marking, put on a new sideplate with the two digits on the bottom and rust-blue. Plus, everything fits and works together perfectly. By the time I got it, though, that sideplate was a wreck. Somebody had tried to remove pitting with some kind of end mill, then hot-blued it. I eventually found a beautiful commercial plate with the exact finish and wear, but a different number (on the bottom).

Ron Smith · 08-25-2004, 10:54 PM

I think my best feeling Luger is my 1920/1921 police rework. It,for some reason feels better in my hand than any of the others. And my 1921 is a close second. I think there must be some slight demensional change they made during this production period.
Ron

Stevie · 08-26-2004, 12:51 AM

My 1920 DWM is obviously ground down, you can see remnants of the old date, probably 1918. I also have the Weimer doves proofs.

saxman · 08-26-2004, 08:31 AM

Mine has the 1920 centered on the chamber top with no obvious evidence of previous date removal, but it must have been ground off.

saxman · 08-26-2004, 05:52 PM

I guess my proofs are the 'doves', too. I have been calling them 'eagles'. They are proofs #31 in the proof marks section.

01-17-2004, 04:10 PM	#1
byf42 User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Great Plains Posts: 74 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1920 DWM question Recently purchased a new addition to the obsession. Its 1920 chamber dated, with #31 proofs on the right side. serial number is 5340a matching throught. Couple of questions: No strawed parts, I am assuming its been reblued, but all the edges are still very sharp. It has what appears to be some type of three winged eagle stamped in front of the #31 proofs, and then another one on the barrel. The one that I cannot find anywhere is the one on the top of the barrel. It looks like a spider with the letter A underneath it, but its very small. I cannot find any other marks on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike

01-17-2004, 05:14 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	Mike, can you provide pictures, flatbed scans or digital? It should be strawed, although sometimes hard to tell, unless they are obviously blued parts? On the barrel is probably a weimar remark, but would have to see it first? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-17-2004, 05:58 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	I know for a fact that 1920 / 1921 Lugers were made, the catch is, that sometimes the 1920 isn't a date, but a property marking, and that makes it harder to tell. It might be a commerical or military that has been reworked and property marked 1920. Sometimes it is hard to tell, but the tricks are the proofs, or other markings to determine if it is a 1920 or earlier gun. If you like the Weimar era, then look for Weimar Lugers by Jan Still, very much worth the money. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-20-2004, 01:44 PM	#6
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, I was thinking that yours was like mine from your description. I also have the three #31 proofs on the receiver, but not the waffenampt marks. The question is whether these pistols were made during the Weimar era or earlier. Because they have the #31 proofs, it indicates to me that they were newly made in this period. Otherwise, the old proof marks would have been ground off and the new ones stamped. There is no evidence of any such work on my pistol, and I'm betting not on yours, either. I would love to find out exactly when it was made, but evidently that cannot be known. Must have been around 1920. Of course the 1920 mark is a property mark for the Weimar government. My pistol gets complicated because it has an upper half with the same serial number but a different suffix - frame is 4084h but barrel is 4084l. This may have been done for a later rework, or when the pistol was assembled if it was made up from parts. The finish on both elements is rust blue and looks exactly the same. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

01-21-2004, 07:35 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	If you look at the gun from the muzzle end (Best taken apart for this event and double checked tobe unloaded, the curve of the forward part of the receiver should have a radius from the center of the bore that closely matches the circumference of the flange on the barrel. If the radius of the receiver seems to thin our near the top and be not a thick as it is to the left and right of the top, then the chances are VERY good that the curved surface of the top of the receiver over the chamber has been ground down to remove the previous chamber stamp. Hope this helps. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-17-2004, 05:34 PM	#3
byf42 User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Great Plains Posts: 74 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, I will post pictures as soon as I can get my hands on a digital camera. Should be SUN in the A.M. The parts look blued. It's hard to tell by the things I have read just what exactly it is. I read that none were made in 1920, then read that some were made. Its all matching down to the grips. Lugeritis has got me in its grips my better half says.... Will post the pics. Thanks for the reply, and what a great tool this forum is for someone like myself. Thanks again. Mike

01-20-2004, 12:07 AM	#5
byf42 User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Great Plains Posts: 74 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, Did some research in previous posts, and on 03-16-03 saxman pictured a 1920 with a proof mark on the barrel.( has the carpet fiber in the picture) Mine is identical to that. The only difference is that mine has waffenamt ?SP? stamps in front of the 3 (#31) stamps on the right side of receiver, and on on the right side of the barrel. The numbers match, and the barrel has the same serial number along with the "a" block stamp as the receiver. Mine has no magazine safety, and no sear safety. I have truly gazed at that thing trying to see if it was ground on the receiver, but I cannot see it. The Waffenamt stamps are very crude and somewhat illegible. The digital camara I have access to will not focus in that close. The 35's for scanning are developing. It appears from the previous posts I have a 1920 rework. I purchased this for a shooter anyhow, and that it does very, very well. Thanks for reviewing my post, and taking the time to educate a new collector.

01-20-2004, 09:08 PM	#7
byf42 User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Great Plains Posts: 74 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I did some searching through the posts and observed the pic of yours. Maybe I overlooked the obvious, but did you identify the proof on the barrel? Mine has the same. I have examined my 1920 everyway I know how, and I cannot for the life of me see where it was ground down. I am just not convinced that it was. the date is in the same location where my 42's are stamped. I dont know if all matching with an "a" block makes any difference??? Anywho, its a great shooter piece. I have a 42 BYF with the black bakelite grips in a 98%+ condition with the 42 DLU holster in just as good a shape. Has 2 plastic bottom FXO mags and tool. Sits on the highest perch in the safe, but I seldom handle it. On the other hand the 1920 is always out. Even though its not a pristine example, its still a marvelous weapon. Shoots great, feeds reliable, and to me one of my prized pistols. A true piece of firearm history, and the bonus is I dont feel bad shooting it regularly. Although its awful tempting to give Thor a holler....

01-21-2004, 09:07 AM	#9
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John; I once thought the same, but found out (right here on the Forum) that while some were ground to remove old dates, the 'thinning' across the top was actually a design change. Since then, I've looked at a lot of Lugers at shows and seen this feature on most of them. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

01-21-2004, 09:47 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Could you please expand a little about this "design change" ...like when did it take place, what was it's function and what models are likely to be affected? The reason I ask is that to grind down and change this curved surface would affect the virtually the entire top of the receiver not just the area over the chamber without making the grinding more obvious since the curve blends into the relieved corners of the top outside of the upper receiver. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-21-2004, 11:09 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	John, Model 1900 Lugers have a round profile above the chamber. The 1906 model, and all thereafter, were ground with a slightly shallower, non-concentric curve. As to the reason, your guess is as good as mine. And you are correct, the angle changes, very gently, where the angled flat portion of the receiver rails blend into the chamber. This is quite apparent if you examine the area closely with an eye to the change. --Dwight

08-25-2004, 08:05 PM	#12
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I believe I have solved my Luger. While cleaning it tonight after Sunday's shoot, I discovered the imprint of a unit mark on the inside of the front strap. On the outside, it's been neatly sanded off without a trace. The mark can't be read, but that's not important. The facts that the cannon and frame have different suffixes but match in old rust blue, the original sideplate was marked on the bottom in the commercial style, and it has the Eagle/AYA4 proofs on the right side, indicating a rework, had me puzzled and there didn't seem to be an answer for it. Now that I know about the old unit mark, it comes together. I now believe it was assembled from several guns after WWI, refinished and sold as a commercial, but in Germany, not for export, as it doesn't have Germany on it. All this must have happened in the '20s because of the old rust blue. How it got over here is anybody's guess, but I would imagine it had something to do with a G.I. So, how do you like my theory? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-25-2004, 08:12 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	Sounds fair to me Very possible, I have never looked for it, but have been told this happens (that you can see what the unit markings were from the inside). Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-25-2004, 10:26 PM	#14
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It seems to me that only a government rebuild would assemble a cannon and frame with the same number but different suffixes, remove the unit marking, put on a new sideplate with the two digits on the bottom and rust-blue. Plus, everything fits and works together perfectly. By the time I got it, though, that sideplate was a wreck. Somebody had tried to remove pitting with some kind of end mill, then hot-blued it. I eventually found a beautiful commercial plate with the exact finish and wear, but a different number (on the bottom). __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-25-2004, 10:54 PM	#15
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I think my best feeling Luger is my 1920/1921 police rework. It,for some reason feels better in my hand than any of the others. And my 1921 is a close second. I think there must be some slight demensional change they made during this production period. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-26-2004, 12:51 AM	#16
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My 1920 DWM is obviously ground down, you can see remnants of the old date, probably 1918. I also have the Weimer doves proofs.

08-26-2004, 08:31 AM	#17
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mine has the 1920 centered on the chamber top with no obvious evidence of previous date removal, but it must have been ground off. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-26-2004, 05:52 PM	#18
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I guess my proofs are the 'doves', too. I have been calling them 'eagles'. They are proofs #31 in the proof marks section. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.