Significance of 1920

jjmoon · 12-07-2003, 06:06 PM

I have a luger that is stamped 1916 and 1920. What does the 1920 mean? and what was the significance of the number?

Edward Tinker · 12-07-2003, 06:41 PM

The 1920 is a Weimar property number put on generally in 1920 and 1921 (a few cases of later time frames, i.e. put on much later), this was because so many guns and other items were being stolen and used for nefarious purposes. The Weimar gov't was facing flak from the Allied War Commission (might not be the right name) and took the tactic of applying a 2nd number. Many collectors call these "double dates", although not really a date as more of a property number.

You see many Weimar police with double dates, can you provide pictures and further description?

Welcome to the forum!!

Ed

saxman · 12-08-2003, 10:52 AM

My DWM has 1920 over the chamber and the three AYA4 Eagles on the receiver (#31 in the proof marks section). These proofs are said to indicate a 1920 police or military rework. These proofs are rather deeply stamped, and the steel was apparently not ground down to remove previous proofs. This would indicate the proofs are original. Can anyone say when these proofs began to be used? It's a 4084h, numbered in the military style.

Edward Tinker · 12-08-2003, 11:52 AM

Some of the Weimar era are WW1 reworks, but there were 1920 and 1921 lugers made.

I will look over my notes and books and get back with you later today / tomorrow unless someone else has the info handy.

Ed

policeluger · 12-08-2003, 03:39 PM

The 1920 is a Reichswehr property stamp, AYAe/4 was used on 1920/1921 military/police guns, both DWM and Erfurt.

saxman · 12-08-2003, 09:59 PM

So, pistols bearing these proofs were newly made in 1920/21?

policeluger · 12-08-2003, 10:53 PM

New and rework, By DWM, not an Simson proof.

saxman · 12-09-2003, 09:15 AM

It looks like I have an undated 1920. I believe it was assembled from parts by DWM, or a 'rework' if you will. The 'upper' is 4084l (marked on barrel; 4084 on left side of slide), but the frame is 4084h. The type face of the frame stamp is a little different than on the barrel and slide, but the finish is an old rust blue that matches on all parts. The barrel also has the same proof as the right side of the slide. The toggle train has 84 on its parts, but the 4 is stamped over a 3. Except for the old, matching rust-blue finish, I'd say anybody could have put it together, but I think its a factory job.

policeluger · 12-09-2003, 10:20 AM

The AYAe/4 in this case, now that we have a serial number, should be a new fabricated gun, suffix range "i" to "r" would be 1921 to 1928 DWM. With a slight mix of suffex and style of lettering, along with over stamping, I would believe, without seeing the gun, that it is a old factory/arsenal rework.

saxman · 12-09-2003, 01:19 PM

Agreed. It has been a struggle to get this far with it, but I'm starting to feel comfortable with the description we now have. Thanks to everyone for your input, and here's hoping you all find a nice Luger in your stocking on Christmas.

saxman · 12-13-2003, 11:50 AM

Okay, the fertile mind never resting, there's a new question. Considering the lineage of this piece, would any of you get it restored if it was yours? In my case, I can do it myself, so it's not really throwing money away. I can do the straw and enhance the blue without stripping it, and I've already ordered some grips - these have cracks I repaired. The marks on the frame flat are just some numbers a previous owner scratched on there. I believe I can make it look just like the pistol on the home page. I'll probably put a repro sideplate on it if I can't find a real one I like - this one is fine, but it's an Erfurt.

saxman · 12-18-2003, 08:40 PM

Well, my new grips came in - wow!. I took the pistol out, laid the new grip on it and suddenly saw in my mind's eye a refurbished Luger. I'm going to do it. I'll take before and after pics, for better or worse. The CDNN $18.99 grips look really good.

12-07-2003, 06:06 PM	#1
jjmoon New User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Significance of 1920 I have a luger that is stamped 1916 and 1920. What does the 1920 mean? and what was the significance of the number?

12-07-2003, 06:41 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	The 1920 is a Weimar property number put on generally in 1920 and 1921 (a few cases of later time frames, i.e. put on much later), this was because so many guns and other items were being stolen and used for nefarious purposes. The Weimar gov't was facing flak from the Allied War Commission (might not be the right name) and took the tactic of applying a 2nd number. Many collectors call these "double dates", although not really a date as more of a property number. You see many Weimar police with double dates, can you provide pictures and further description? Welcome to the forum!! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-08-2003, 11:52 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Some of the Weimar era are WW1 reworks, but there were 1920 and 1921 lugers made. I will look over my notes and books and get back with you later today / tomorrow unless someone else has the info handy. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-08-2003, 09:59 PM	#6
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So, pistols bearing these proofs were newly made in 1920/21? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-09-2003, 09:15 AM	#8
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It looks like I have an undated 1920. I believe it was assembled from parts by DWM, or a 'rework' if you will. The 'upper' is 4084l (marked on barrel; 4084 on left side of slide), but the frame is 4084h. The type face of the frame stamp is a little different than on the barrel and slide, but the finish is an old rust blue that matches on all parts. The barrel also has the same proof as the right side of the slide. The toggle train has 84 on its parts, but the 4 is stamped over a 3. Except for the old, matching rust-blue finish, I'd say anybody could have put it together, but I think its a factory job. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-08-2003, 10:52 AM	#3
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My DWM has 1920 over the chamber and the three AYA4 Eagles on the receiver (#31 in the proof marks section). These proofs are said to indicate a 1920 police or military rework. These proofs are rather deeply stamped, and the steel was apparently not ground down to remove previous proofs. This would indicate the proofs are original. Can anyone say when these proofs began to be used? It's a 4084h, numbered in the military style. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-08-2003, 03:39 PM	#5
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	The 1920 is a Reichswehr property stamp, AYAe/4 was used on 1920/1921 military/police guns, both DWM and Erfurt.

12-08-2003, 10:53 PM	#7
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	New and rework, By DWM, not an Simson proof.

12-09-2003, 10:20 AM	#9
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	The AYAe/4 in this case, now that we have a serial number, should be a new fabricated gun, suffix range "i" to "r" would be 1921 to 1928 DWM. With a slight mix of suffex and style of lettering, along with over stamping, I would believe, without seeing the gun, that it is a old factory/arsenal rework.

12-09-2003, 01:19 PM	#10
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Agreed. It has been a struggle to get this far with it, but I'm starting to feel comfortable with the description we now have. Thanks to everyone for your input, and here's hoping you all find a nice Luger in your stocking on Christmas. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-13-2003, 11:50 AM	#11
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, the fertile mind never resting, there's a new question. Considering the lineage of this piece, would any of you get it restored if it was yours? In my case, I can do it myself, so it's not really throwing money away. I can do the straw and enhance the blue without stripping it, and I've already ordered some grips - these have cracks I repaired. The marks on the frame flat are just some numbers a previous owner scratched on there. I believe I can make it look just like the pistol on the home page. I'll probably put a repro sideplate on it if I can't find a real one I like - this one is fine, but it's an Erfurt. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-18-2003, 08:40 PM	#12
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, my new grips came in - wow!. I took the pistol out, laid the new grip on it and suddenly saw in my mind's eye a refurbished Luger. I'm going to do it. I'll take before and after pics, for better or worse. The CDNN $18.99 grips look really good. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.