A penny for your thoughts

USMC · 01-27-2004, 12:57 PM

I have been looking at this luger now for quite sometime, there is just something that draws me to this luger vise any other luger. I have had thoughts of possibly purchasing this luger but for some reason I'am unsure. Could I get some feedback on this Luger?

Semper-Fi
USMC
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/37mauser1.htm

lugerholsterrepair · 01-27-2004, 01:11 PM

USMC, It's a pistol I would love to have but 5 grand is quite a chunk O change. I guess i prefer to wait and see what comes along rather than buy from a big price dealer.

I came by a mint byf 44 P-38 with hardshell holster and a georgeous Inland .30 carbine this weekend and got the two of them for 700. Just people in the neighborhood wanting to sell...Both over 75 years old.

I know nothing about the value of the pistol in question, and it's a beauty but I emagine 5000 is pretty much top dollar.Good luck! Jerry Burney

Herb · 01-27-2004, 01:17 PM

Joshua, this weapon appears to be in very good condition and a realtively rare variation. Thier reference to Kenyon is correct and he has documented that possibly 1,000 may exist. One thing that I noticed that looked suspicious is the serial number stamping on the underside of the barrel. The number 4 is incorrectly stamped, not in line with the other numbers. Additionally there is no land diameter stamp (8.82-8.83 etc) that I can see. This may just be sloppy work done at the time if manufacturing or it may be a 'forced' serial number done at a later date, or a replaced barrel. If found to have a replaced barrel then I would suspect a total refinish as I can see no difference in the finish of the barrel and the frame. Further they say the barrel is 4 5/8" and Kenyon says it should be 4 3/4" long, true, a small difference but something that should be taken into account. They further do not state that the finish is original. A close examination of the the tiny markings on the barrel (not visible in the photos) needs to be done to insure it is of the proper date range and correct Mauser stampings. A 37 Mauser barrel should have two Nazi eagles, one on the lower right side and another on the upper left. I've seen many Lugers offered by Phoenix Investment and in my opinion they tend to run at the high end or higher and somehow they seem to come up with rare variations fairly regularily. I'm not implying anything other than coincidence.

USMC · 01-27-2004, 05:11 PM

Thank you all for your opinions. I to agree about the price being alittle on the pricey side. I have never dealed with a seller like this, are they usually pretty firm on there prices or are they willing to negotiate? Is there a better place to shop for lugers besides phoenix? I already know of Ralph Shattuck and Simpson ltd.
Simpson Ltd. tends to have a wide variety of Lugers to choose from. I tend to stay away from auction sites when buying firearms. Once again I thank you for the helpful thoughts!

Herb · 01-27-2004, 08:24 PM

I have bought Lugers from the auction sites and have not had any problems. Most of the better ones have a guarenteed 3 day inspection policy but it would be a good idea to confirm this this with the seller before bidding. Things to watch for is the 'feeding frenzy' where you and another bidder are determined to outbid each other and lose track of the actual value of the item being bid on. Some of the forum members sell on Gunbroker and Auction Arms and might be able to add a few pointers.
If you really have the hots for this particular Luger send them an email and ask if the barrel has been replaced and renumbered and if it has been refinished, I would be interested in their reply.

Navy · 01-27-2004, 09:50 PM

IMHO,

the pix of the bottom of the barrel where it mates with the receiver look re-done....maybe just the photograph, maybe its the gun.

Tom A

ViggoG · 01-28-2004, 02:53 AM

Just My Opinion,
Under the closest examination that I can obtain, I get the impression that all of the digit 4 seem to be slightly above the preceeding number 6.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I feel that the misalignment is just a simple case of bad workmanship on the part of the inspector.
"Bad Workmanship on A Luger", I should bite My Toung!!! <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
Is it possible that this could be a morning after product of "a long wet weekend"? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Or Possibly, "A Snoot Full of Schnapps".
<img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
Just an observation with possibilities.
ViggoG <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

USMC · 01-28-2004, 11:13 AM

I will try to get a hold of the seller for more detailed pics of the barrel. I will keep you posted on my findings.

Semper-Fi
USMC

Navy · 01-28-2004, 09:50 PM

have looked at it several times; my instinct says "run away".

Tom A.

LugermanNH · 01-29-2004, 10:53 AM

USMC,

You don't have to "run away" from this gun; sometimes these older collectors can't shake the memories of the '50s when Lugers were cheap and hamburgers were $.25. There is also the frequent story of the recent widow who shows up at the neighbors yard sale with a sack full of 1900 Swiss that someone liberates for $700. Stand around any table at a gun show and you will hear all the tales of the "tooth fairy".

Fact is, I was out in Vegas early this month for the gun show and there was Shattuck, Adams, Krause & others with some premium Lugers. We're not talking rusted, pitted or bottom of the fishing box but collector grade Lugers. And $5k was definately not the high end price. Discarding Shattuck's .45 carbine and some other carbines that started in the $12-$15k range most of the rarer pieces (even "restored" guns) were over $4k.

These guys bundle up boxes of Lugers, buy a $300 table in a gun show (Vegas), (forget motels, airline fares, ground transportation etc.) and invest a fortune in rare Lugers that sellers think are a retirement fund and buyers want for $300. These guys are there for a profit; we find it convenient to shop from our computer because as collectors we don't have time to visit every pawn shop on our way to work to see if a 1900 Mexican came in.

I saw this particular gun in Charlotte and I almost bought it. I took it apart and examined everything that I could see with my loupe and everything matched. If I recall, it even had a Crown U under the front sight and all the witness marks appeared true and original. When Lugers were proofed and struck it was while the gun was "in the white".

Luger serials were hand struck, on the curve of the barrel with tiny numbers, by some guy who carried his lunch to work every day, in a factory producing 1000's of guns a month, so we can sit here 67 yrs later and opine that with one number, 1mm out of alignment that some gun dealer found a perfectly fitting 7.65 barrel in his bucket of gun barrels, with a correct proof on the front site, having three digits of a four digit match and then stripped the old blue, forced a serial number by applying a perfectly sized and matching "4", perfectly aligned the witness marks and re-blued the gun to match a Mauser 1937 blue and did all this to a rather rare commercial contract that only an experienced Mauser collector would be interested in. Can you imagine those odds?
Also note that the Germans did not use inches for their method of measuring. Jones in Luger Variations shows the correct method to measure the barrel length but the fact is these were called 120mm and most of them measure 119mm so you can do the conversion math. Just like we call them 9mm but the barrel can be stamped 8.82, (does not render the gun bogus).

The absence of Nazi proofs only supports this was a commercial contract. Note grip safety and pencil barrel. In fact if it had Nazi proofs I would assume it was a re-work because I couldn't imagine the German Army would order a 1906 style Mauser in 7.65 in limited quantity, in a 120 mm length, etc., etc. so that it wouldn't fit the standard holster.

Skepticism is healthy in Luger collecting, just don't let it become a phobia. Most sellers have 3-day inspection period, including this guy (Phoenix), that gives you a chance to study the gun. I would direct a question to the seller if you want to know if it has been restored (outside the factory). If you buy it based on his statement then you have cause to return it. Of course he might qualify his statement (IMHO), just like I'm going to qualify this post "to the best of my knowledge". I don't want the Luger Forum suing me.

If you like the gun buy it, they aren't making them anymore.

John

policeluger · 01-29-2004, 11:18 AM

WOW John a great, great post. I believe you are 100% on every item above...I'm going too print and save it. Thanks very much for taking the time too answer here on this subject, you are right, skepticism is great, but when it becomes a phobia you have gone too far. Some of my best gun show buys have been passed over by a lot of folks, perhaps expecting perfection, not aware that we are looking at assambly line production guns with no thought off collectability 80 years later....thanks again...I see a mint perfect gun thats 50+ years old and saw service and I turn away. These were tools, not investments back then.

01-27-2004, 12:57 PM	#1
USMC User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: APG, Maryland Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A penny for your thoughts I have been looking at this luger now for quite sometime, there is just something that draws me to this luger vise any other luger. I have had thoughts of possibly purchasing this luger but for some reason I'am unsure. Could I get some feedback on this Luger? Semper-Fi USMC http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/37mauser1.htm __________________ "We have been looking for the enemy for several days now. We found them....were surrounded! This simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them!

01-27-2004, 01:11 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	USMC, It's a pistol I would love to have but 5 grand is quite a chunk O change. I guess i prefer to wait and see what comes along rather than buy from a big price dealer. I came by a mint byf 44 P-38 with hardshell holster and a georgeous Inland .30 carbine this weekend and got the two of them for 700. Just people in the neighborhood wanting to sell...Both over 75 years old. I know nothing about the value of the pistol in question, and it's a beauty but I emagine 5000 is pretty much top dollar.Good luck! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-27-2004, 01:17 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Joshua, this weapon appears to be in very good condition and a realtively rare variation. Thier reference to Kenyon is correct and he has documented that possibly 1,000 may exist. One thing that I noticed that looked suspicious is the serial number stamping on the underside of the barrel. The number 4 is incorrectly stamped, not in line with the other numbers. Additionally there is no land diameter stamp (8.82-8.83 etc) that I can see. This may just be sloppy work done at the time if manufacturing or it may be a 'forced' serial number done at a later date, or a replaced barrel. If found to have a replaced barrel then I would suspect a total refinish as I can see no difference in the finish of the barrel and the frame. Further they say the barrel is 4 5/8" and Kenyon says it should be 4 3/4" long, true, a small difference but something that should be taken into account. They further do not state that the finish is original. A close examination of the the tiny markings on the barrel (not visible in the photos) needs to be done to insure it is of the proper date range and correct Mauser stampings. A 37 Mauser barrel should have two Nazi eagles, one on the lower right side and another on the upper left. I've seen many Lugers offered by Phoenix Investment and in my opinion they tend to run at the high end or higher and somehow they seem to come up with rare variations fairly regularily. I'm not implying anything other than coincidence. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-27-2004, 05:11 PM	#4
USMC User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: APG, Maryland Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all for your opinions. I to agree about the price being alittle on the pricey side. I have never dealed with a seller like this, are they usually pretty firm on there prices or are they willing to negotiate? Is there a better place to shop for lugers besides phoenix? I already know of Ralph Shattuck and Simpson ltd. Simpson Ltd. tends to have a wide variety of Lugers to choose from. I tend to stay away from auction sites when buying firearms. Once again I thank you for the helpful thoughts! __________________ "We have been looking for the enemy for several days now. We found them....were surrounded! This simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them!

01-27-2004, 08:24 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have bought Lugers from the auction sites and have not had any problems. Most of the better ones have a guarenteed 3 day inspection policy but it would be a good idea to confirm this this with the seller before bidding. Things to watch for is the 'feeding frenzy' where you and another bidder are determined to outbid each other and lose track of the actual value of the item being bid on. Some of the forum members sell on Gunbroker and Auction Arms and might be able to add a few pointers. If you really have the hots for this particular Luger send them an email and ask if the barrel has been replaced and renumbered and if it has been refinished, I would be interested in their reply. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-27-2004, 09:50 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	IMHO, the pix of the bottom of the barrel where it mates with the receiver look re-done....maybe just the photograph, maybe its the gun. Tom A

01-28-2004, 02:53 AM	#7
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just My Opinion, Under the closest examination that I can obtain, I get the impression that all of the digit 4 seem to be slightly above the preceeding number 6. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I feel that the misalignment is just a simple case of bad workmanship on the part of the inspector. "Bad Workmanship on A Luger", I should bite My Toung!!! <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> Is it possible that this could be a morning after product of "a long wet weekend"? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Or Possibly, "A Snoot Full of Schnapps". <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> Just an observation with possibilities. ViggoG <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

01-28-2004, 11:13 AM	#8
USMC User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: APG, Maryland Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will try to get a hold of the seller for more detailed pics of the barrel. I will keep you posted on my findings. Semper-Fi USMC __________________ "We have been looking for the enemy for several days now. We found them....were surrounded! This simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them!

01-28-2004, 09:50 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	have looked at it several times; my instinct says "run away". Tom A.

01-29-2004, 10:53 AM	#10
LugermanNH User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	USMC, You don't have to "run away" from this gun; sometimes these older collectors can't shake the memories of the '50s when Lugers were cheap and hamburgers were $.25. There is also the frequent story of the recent widow who shows up at the neighbors yard sale with a sack full of 1900 Swiss that someone liberates for $700. Stand around any table at a gun show and you will hear all the tales of the "tooth fairy". Fact is, I was out in Vegas early this month for the gun show and there was Shattuck, Adams, Krause & others with some premium Lugers. We're not talking rusted, pitted or bottom of the fishing box but collector grade Lugers. And $5k was definately not the high end price. Discarding Shattuck's .45 carbine and some other carbines that started in the $12-$15k range most of the rarer pieces (even "restored" guns) were over $4k. These guys bundle up boxes of Lugers, buy a $300 table in a gun show (Vegas), (forget motels, airline fares, ground transportation etc.) and invest a fortune in rare Lugers that sellers think are a retirement fund and buyers want for $300. These guys are there for a profit; we find it convenient to shop from our computer because as collectors we don't have time to visit every pawn shop on our way to work to see if a 1900 Mexican came in. I saw this particular gun in Charlotte and I almost bought it. I took it apart and examined everything that I could see with my loupe and everything matched. If I recall, it even had a Crown U under the front sight and all the witness marks appeared true and original. When Lugers were proofed and struck it was while the gun was "in the white". Luger serials were hand struck, on the curve of the barrel with tiny numbers, by some guy who carried his lunch to work every day, in a factory producing 1000's of guns a month, so we can sit here 67 yrs later and opine that with one number, 1mm out of alignment that some gun dealer found a perfectly fitting 7.65 barrel in his bucket of gun barrels, with a correct proof on the front site, having three digits of a four digit match and then stripped the old blue, forced a serial number by applying a perfectly sized and matching "4", perfectly aligned the witness marks and re-blued the gun to match a Mauser 1937 blue and did all this to a rather rare commercial contract that only an experienced Mauser collector would be interested in. Can you imagine those odds? Also note that the Germans did not use inches for their method of measuring. Jones in Luger Variations shows the correct method to measure the barrel length but the fact is these were called 120mm and most of them measure 119mm so you can do the conversion math. Just like we call them 9mm but the barrel can be stamped 8.82, (does not render the gun bogus). The absence of Nazi proofs only supports this was a commercial contract. Note grip safety and pencil barrel. In fact if it had Nazi proofs I would assume it was a re-work because I couldn't imagine the German Army would order a 1906 style Mauser in 7.65 in limited quantity, in a 120 mm length, etc., etc. so that it wouldn't fit the standard holster. Skepticism is healthy in Luger collecting, just don't let it become a phobia. Most sellers have 3-day inspection period, including this guy (Phoenix), that gives you a chance to study the gun. I would direct a question to the seller if you want to know if it has been restored (outside the factory). If you buy it based on his statement then you have cause to return it. Of course he might qualify his statement (IMHO), just like I'm going to qualify this post "to the best of my knowledge". I don't want the Luger Forum suing me. If you like the gun buy it, they aren't making them anymore. John

01-29-2004, 11:18 AM	#11
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	WOW John a great, great post. I believe you are 100% on every item above...I'm going too print and save it. Thanks very much for taking the time too answer here on this subject, you are right, skepticism is great, but when it becomes a phobia you have gone too far. Some of my best gun show buys have been passed over by a lot of folks, perhaps expecting perfection, not aware that we are looking at assambly line production guns with no thought off collectability 80 years later....thanks again...I see a mint perfect gun thats 50+ years old and saw service and I turn away. These were tools, not investments back then.