A few small questions on Sturmgewehr

alvin · 09-10-2017, 07:00 AM

Peter Senich's book arrived. I read through it quickly. It's a good book, better than I expected. But, there are a few question on the gun unanswered.

Page 89. "Although production codes, acceptance stamps, and the weapon serial number were normally applied, bolts without manufacturer's markings (code) has been noted". On Page 90, pictures showing bolt with number "504". It's not a stamp, it's electro-pencil handwriting.

Q1: Is the bolt normally numbered this way, electro-pencil handwritting?

Page 98. "...buttstock.... The weapon serial number and acceptance markings were often stamped on the metal attachment as well as the wood"

Q2: So, the stock is normally numbered to the gun. Where is supposed to find that number on the wood on metal?

Q3: Besides receiver, bolt and stock, are there other numbered parts on this type?

Page 95. Rear sight leaf. On the B&W picture, it's hard to tell the sight leaf being blued, or it's white with patina..

Q4: Is the sight leaf surface supposed to be blued, or in white?

Thanks!

alvin · 09-10-2017, 04:09 PM

For Q4, I think I found the answer. It's like other German guns, sight leaf surface was polished to white. The one printed in book was must be a reblued gun.

For Q1, 2, and 3, any thought? These are low-level questions on C&R, supposed to be very easy to answer... no one knows? No past observation on samples?

gunbugs · 09-10-2017, 05:18 PM

I think you will have to go with the limited info in Senich's book.
As far as the STG rifle goes, there aren't that many examples out there to be examined. Not many people here on the parabellum forum are going to know the answers to your questions, as they collect P-08's, not STG rifles, (a far more expensive hobby.) I would actually post these questions on the Sturmghewer forums, where you may get more people who are knowledgeable in this subject.

alvin · 09-10-2017, 06:57 PM

Understand. You're not in that domain.

Talking about more expensive hobby, depends on how you view these.. fewer samples needed, the unit price is higher, but its "systematical price" is actually lower -- due to its variation system is way simpler, only a few year production time, no time for meaningful change. Translate into the impact on collector, not many of those things are needed. Most samples are pretty much the same thing.

I reviewed their existing posts.. no detail either. Looks like people playing these don't talk details. Not rocket science, I will figure out details

alvin · 09-10-2017, 08:03 PM

Same small question set posted there. Weird enough, most posts were on trading and government forms to fill in etc... Probably due to the gun is too simple, not many people talking the gun itself.

Hopefully, it works.

DonVoigt · 09-10-2017, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

For Q4, I think I found the answer. It's like other German guns, sight leaf surface was polished to white. The one printed in book was must be a reblued gun.

For Q1, 2, and 3, any thought? These are low-level questions on C&R, supposed to be very easy to answer... no one knows? No past observation on samples?

Low level questions, but a rifle that probably only 20 folks own and none of them frequent the luger forum!

gunbugs · 09-10-2017, 09:22 PM

I'll see if in the not too distant future I can get photos of the one not far from here.

stg44fan · 09-10-2017, 11:28 PM

The stock will be stamped on the bottom of the metal attachment. Cant say I've seen any stamped on the wood. Wish I had more answers for ya.

stg44fan · 09-10-2017, 11:33 PM

And in case anyone one is wondering a MP44 sold for 30k yesterday and a MP43/1 sold for 50K today.

alvin · 09-11-2017, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stg44fan

And in case anyone one is wondering a MP44 sold for 30k yesterday and a MP43/1 sold for 50K today.

Pyrrhic victory. Many new collectors lost their control when bidding in auction. Very normal. On the other hand, that implies the bidders do have some spare money, so, that's the case.

DonVoigt · 09-11-2017, 09:23 AM

Lost control?
Alvin,
are you a psychoanalyst or psychologist?

You seem to have great insight into individual motivation with only access to sales prices on auctions.

sheepherder · 09-11-2017, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Lost control?
Alvin,
are you a psychoanalyst or psychologist?

He is inscrutable.

alvin · 09-11-2017, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

He is inscrutable.

No. I was a former collector, I had some insight into this hobby,,, and I can talk quite frankly to other people. Rule is very simple actually -- think about how to land an airplane before taking off.

Another consideration is the total input. But at this moment, my total "investment" on guns is so low, probably I can increase that a little bit more. No crashing risk. A few collectors told me that "they are taking breaks" nowadays, why? total input has been too high. To play safely, collectors need to control their total input. That has nothing to do with they can afford another gun or not. The total is the concern. When a hobby costs hundreds of thousands, having concerns? Cannot be more normal. The concern was not on a single gun.

DonVoigt · 09-11-2017, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

No. I was a former collector, I had some insight into this hobby,,, and I can talk quite frankly to other people. Rule is very simple actually -- think about how to land an airplane before taking off.

Another consideration is the total input. But at this moment, my total "investment" on guns is so low, probably I can increase that a little bit more. No crashing risk. A few collectors told me that "they are taking breaks" nowadays, why? total input has been too high. To play safely, collectors need to control their total input. That has nothing to do with they can afford another gun or not. The total is the concern. When a hobby costs hundreds of thousands, having concerns? Cannot be more normal. The concern was not on a single gun.

Ok,
then what has this to do with the price of "one" class 3 rifle?

Who says one has to "play safely"?

alvin · 09-11-2017, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Who says one has to "play safely"?

Of course not. Some collectors have their main savings into guns. There is a financial risk associating with that. From pure investment and entertainment point of view, that ratio (gun/saving) should be controlled within 5%. But that's for general non-collector gun players, say, Mr. John Public has a few 1911s, a few ARs, a few AKs, total $5000 out of his $100,000 savings. Big deal? That's very safe. Say, dedicated collectors put more in, 15%, 25%? Of course, you can play higher ratio though, if you don't have other burdens in life to take care of. 70%, 80%? if personal condition allows, you can also do that. It's case by case. Many collectors cannot though.

alvin · 09-16-2017, 12:55 AM

It's unbelievable. Questions posted on Sturmgewehr.com for a week, no response. Collectors playing these are very silent. I did see people acting in auction pumping every $2500 increase like lifting a feather, but no talk... how do they know they are bidding on the correct thing if they never exchange information? Probably does not matter in that domain? ... or depends on seller's description?

gunbugs · 09-17-2017, 12:40 AM

Many of the folks in the class three game have been at it for a long time. They have gained their knowledge through the expenditure of large amounts of cash. Plus, some folks just don't care if a gun is matching numbers or not. They just want one to have and hang on the wall. So, it is not unusual that you aren't getting answers to your questions. The very few folks who have these guns aren't hanging around the boards waiting to answer questions about them. It's a different animal than Lugers.

That photo to the left of this comment is of me shooting my C&R Frigidaire 50 cal. So I speak from a position of experience. It didn't come cheap, but there is no substitute for horsepower.

alvin · 09-17-2017, 08:24 AM

Yeah.. the domain lacks research on numerous details. All publications are mainly focusing on history context, not on individual samples. Read an machine pistol ad on a dealer's site, claimed being original based on it came from "a physician's collection", implies it must be original and correct because of that logic, isn't that ridiculous.. it's obviously a reworked piece, but that did not prevent it from selling $27500. I also saw guns with barrel s/n modified, previously welded gun later reactivated, parts replaced etc. But those are samples with obvious problems, there must be a lot of details that needs viewing tons of samples to tell, but not revealed yet. Takes time though.

DonVoigt · 09-17-2017, 11:06 AM

Alvin,
You just do not understand the "domain" of FA weapons.

The legal supply in the US is FIXED and cannot increase. In any domain where the supply is fixed the "quality" and price are not so important to the person who wants the item.

It is a matter of having an item that will shoot a lot fast- and not many "others" can have one.

I would estimate that fully 50% of the legal FA weapons available are assembled from parts- including from cut and re-welded receivers and re-worked barrels ; the "pristine" examples bring even more money than these "mongrels".

Due to the fixed supply, relatively high demand, and legal red tape to sell or to buy; these items do not change hands freely. So when one is available it is a true "seller's" market.

alvin · 09-17-2017, 11:44 AM

Based on my observation, yes, there are many parts guns and modified guns. Some sellers are more honest than others, different people have different personality, that's normal and expected. In seller's' case, unless ask him/her specific questions, seller does not have obligation to reveal all that they know. That's also not abnormal in life. And, he/she may not know either. Lack of details resulted in many parts guns and re-activated ones being sold as is. Another observation -- many buyers in the domain are actually new collectors, the "relatively high demand" mainly came from them.. So, it's a seller's market. Actually, lack of enough number of new collectors is the major reason that many C&R domains being flat. MG has plentiful of new collectors... at least, at this time.

That's the big context though. Down to individual sample, still case by case. That's the reason to ask. A blind man riding on a blind horse is not a good combination.

09-10-2017, 07:00 AM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	A few small questions on Sturmgewehr Peter Senich's book arrived. I read through it quickly. It's a good book, better than I expected. But, there are a few question on the gun unanswered. Page 89. "Although production codes, acceptance stamps, and the weapon serial number were normally applied, bolts without manufacturer's markings (code) has been noted". On Page 90, pictures showing bolt with number "504". It's not a stamp, it's electro-pencil handwriting. Q1: Is the bolt normally numbered this way, electro-pencil handwritting? Page 98. "...buttstock.... The weapon serial number and acceptance markings were often stamped on the metal attachment as well as the wood" Q2: So, the stock is normally numbered to the gun. Where is supposed to find that number on the wood on metal? Q3: Besides receiver, bolt and stock, are there other numbered parts on this type? Page 95. Rear sight leaf. On the B&W picture, it's hard to tell the sight leaf being blued, or it's white with patina.. Q4: Is the sight leaf surface supposed to be blued, or in white? Thanks!

09-10-2017, 11:28 PM	#8
stg44fan User Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Portland OR Posts: 81 Thanks: 42 Thanked 49 Times in 27 Posts	The stock will be stamped on the bottom of the metal attachment. Cant say I've seen any stamped on the wood. Wish I had more answers for ya. Attached Thumbnails

09-11-2017, 09:23 AM	#11
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Lost control? Alvin, are you a psychoanalyst or psychologist? You seem to have great insight into individual motivation with only access to sales prices on auctions. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

09-17-2017, 08:24 AM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Yeah.. the domain lacks research on numerous details. All publications are mainly focusing on history context, not on individual samples. Read an machine pistol ad on a dealer's site, claimed being original based on it came from "a physician's collection", implies it must be original and correct because of that logic, isn't that ridiculous.. it's obviously a reworked piece, but that did not prevent it from selling $27500. I also saw guns with barrel s/n modified, previously welded gun later reactivated, parts replaced etc. But those are samples with obvious problems, there must be a lot of details that needs viewing tons of samples to tell, but not revealed yet. Takes time though. Last edited by alvin; 09-17-2017 at 09:42 AM.

09-17-2017, 11:06 AM	#19
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Alvin, You just do not understand the "domain" of FA weapons. The legal supply in the US is FIXED and cannot increase. In any domain where the supply is fixed the "quality" and price are not so important to the person who wants the item. It is a matter of having an item that will shoot a lot fast- and not many "others" can have one. I would estimate that fully 50% of the legal FA weapons available are assembled from parts- including from cut and re-welded receivers and re-worked barrels ; the "pristine" examples bring even more money than these "mongrels". Due to the fixed supply, relatively high demand, and legal red tape to sell or to buy; these items do not change hands freely. So when one is available it is a true "seller's" market. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

09-10-2017, 04:09 PM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	For Q4, I think I found the answer. It's like other German guns, sight leaf surface was polished to white. The one printed in book was must be a reblued gun. For Q1, 2, and 3, any thought? These are low-level questions on C&R, supposed to be very easy to answer... no one knows? No past observation on samples?

09-10-2017, 05:18 PM	#3
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 640 Thanks: 344 Thanked 1,148 Times in 382 Posts	I think you will have to go with the limited info in Senich's book. As far as the STG rifle goes, there aren't that many examples out there to be examined. Not many people here on the parabellum forum are going to know the answers to your questions, as they collect P-08's, not STG rifles, (a far more expensive hobby.) I would actually post these questions on the Sturmghewer forums, where you may get more people who are knowledgeable in this subject.

09-10-2017, 06:57 PM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Understand. You're not in that domain. Talking about more expensive hobby, depends on how you view these.. fewer samples needed, the unit price is higher, but its "systematical price" is actually lower -- due to its variation system is way simpler, only a few year production time, no time for meaningful change. Translate into the impact on collector, not many of those things are needed. Most samples are pretty much the same thing. I reviewed their existing posts.. no detail either. Looks like people playing these don't talk details. Not rocket science, I will figure out details

09-10-2017, 08:03 PM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Same small question set posted there. Weird enough, most posts were on trading and government forms to fill in etc... Probably due to the gun is too simple, not many people talking the gun itself. Hopefully, it works.

09-10-2017, 09:22 PM	#7
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 640 Thanks: 344 Thanked 1,148 Times in 382 Posts	I'll see if in the not too distant future I can get photos of the one not far from here.

09-10-2017, 11:33 PM	#9
stg44fan User Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Portland OR Posts: 81 Thanks: 42 Thanked 49 Times in 27 Posts	And in case anyone one is wondering a MP44 sold for 30k yesterday and a MP43/1 sold for 50K today.

09-16-2017, 12:55 AM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's unbelievable. Questions posted on Sturmgewehr.com for a week, no response. Collectors playing these are very silent. I did see people acting in auction pumping every $2500 increase like lifting a feather, but no talk... how do they know they are bidding on the correct thing if they never exchange information? Probably does not matter in that domain? ... or depends on seller's description?

09-17-2017, 12:40 AM	#17
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 640 Thanks: 344 Thanked 1,148 Times in 382 Posts	Many of the folks in the class three game have been at it for a long time. They have gained their knowledge through the expenditure of large amounts of cash. Plus, some folks just don't care if a gun is matching numbers or not. They just want one to have and hang on the wall. So, it is not unusual that you aren't getting answers to your questions. The very few folks who have these guns aren't hanging around the boards waiting to answer questions about them. It's a different animal than Lugers. That photo to the left of this comment is of me shooting my C&R Frigidaire 50 cal. So I speak from a position of experience. It didn't come cheap, but there is no substitute for horsepower.

09-17-2017, 11:44 AM	#20
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Based on my observation, yes, there are many parts guns and modified guns. Some sellers are more honest than others, different people have different personality, that's normal and expected. In seller's' case, unless ask him/her specific questions, seller does not have obligation to reveal all that they know. That's also not abnormal in life. And, he/she may not know either. Lack of details resulted in many parts guns and re-activated ones being sold as is. Another observation -- many buyers in the domain are actually new collectors, the "relatively high demand" mainly came from them.. So, it's a seller's market. Actually, lack of enough number of new collectors is the major reason that many C&R domains being flat. MG has plentiful of new collectors... at least, at this time. That's the big context though. Down to individual sample, still case by case. That's the reason to ask. A blind man riding on a blind horse is not a good combination.