Question on inverted serial letter suffix on Luger

snipershot1944 · 10-05-2016, 10:02 PM

A dealer friend has an interesting u block 41/42 Luger with two matching mags. However the letter suffix on the frame is inverted. I'd appreciate any comments on the pistol and how much if any harm this does to value?

David
Snipershot1944@yahoo.com

snipershot1944 · 10-05-2016, 10:03 PM

Mag photos

snipershot1944 · 10-05-2016, 10:04 PM

Last pics

Edward Tinker · 10-05-2016, 10:09 PM

show the suffix on the luger straight on - on the mags, those are 'U' not N's IMHO

I have never seen inverted letters, and I'd say its an 'n' on the luger and 'u' on the mags...

snipershot1944 · 10-05-2016, 10:26 PM

Ed. I had glare issues with the pics and only a cell phone for pics. So I'm trying to figure out if the factory had a bad day or this was humped?

DonVoigt · 10-05-2016, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snipershot1944

Ed. I had glare issues with the pics and only a cell phone for pics. So I'm trying to figure out if the factory had a bad day or this was humped?

Looks like the bottoms of the mags were sanded and re-numbered.

I too think the pistol is "n" and the mags "u"

lugercollector · 10-05-2016, 10:54 PM

I believe that was a gun I once owned...untouched,as brought back by a vet....the suffix is an "n" and for whatever reason the "n" was stamped upside down on the mags......was perplexed as to why at the time...concluded the mags were stamped like that from day one....

John Sabato · 10-06-2016, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Looks like the bottoms of the mags were sanded and re-numbered.

I too think the pistol is "n" and the mags "u"

I have to side with Don on this issue... the bottoms of these mags have definitely been sanded. The difference in aluminum oxidation is very apparent. The numbers were restamped IMHO, and the letter suffix (definitely a "U") is original.

The letter on the pistol is an "N"

Question, is there a suffix on the barrel?

Just my $0.02

DavidJayUden · 10-06-2016, 10:27 AM

I'll agree that the mag bottoms look "shaved" from one angle, but looking at them from the sides I'm not seeing it. And to remove enough material to completely remove previous numbers would have to go fairly deep and would show on the side profile. No?
dju

Ron Wood · 10-06-2016, 10:27 AM

Two cents back at you John...the markings on the magazines are upside down "n". Neither open leg of a "u" have a "curl" at the end and there are two starting and ending strokes of a "u", both at the rounded bottom. Ed's tutorial (post #4) clearly shows this.

mrerick · 10-06-2016, 10:37 AM

The shape of the ground surface is that which you generally see only on factory ground magazine bottoms. If renumbered, the work was very well done, but I fear that things are not right.

Take a close look at the "n" and "u" stamps documented here:

http://lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix.html

and you'll see that the tails of the "n" and "u" are different. The magazines have upside down "n" characters, not "u" characters.

And yes, the other explanation is that the worker that day stamped the magazines with an upside down letter suffix accidentally. Is this a one off that escaped inspection and got approval? Are other examples known?

If someone was boosting them, my bet is that they would not have stamped the letters upside down. Of course, anything is possible.

Mac Cat · 10-06-2016, 11:01 AM

or they did't notice the subtle differences.

guns3545 · 10-06-2016, 11:04 AM

They are definitely upside down "n". Could be workman's error. Not sure what kind of jig they used as they stamped suffixes.

But, I would really like to see the other side of the magazines.

They should have the Haenel 122 code and the WaA Eagle 37 proofs and no P.08.

And... subject to measuring the diameters of the bases, I am NOT prepared to write off these mags as fake or boosted.

As always, JMVHO

John

lugercollector · 10-06-2016, 11:21 AM

I purchased the Pistol from an estate,probably 10 years ago......from the family of the Veteran who brought it back......he was a high ranking Canadian Army officer who also brought back a 2 digit Ser # MP38,a G41 Rifle amongst other prime examples of German WW2 Weapons....this pistol was brought back this way......factory mistake?....don't know for sure...there was no reason for the gun to have been played with

John Sabato · 10-06-2016, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Two cents back at you John...the markings on the magazines are upside down "n". Neither open leg of a "u" have a "curl" at the end and there are two starting Ron, and ending strokes of a "u", both at the rounded bottom. Ed's tutorial (post #4) clearly shows this.

I stand corrected on the identification of the "N" as a "U" I based my opinion on my examination of the photos and didn't open Ed's reference article... My bad.

Ron is correct, they are upside down "N" characters...

...on the matter of the re-stamping of the serial number. I am still of the opinion that the mags were re-stamped... the font is not the same as the pistol... the #3 has a flat top on the mags and the rounded top #3 is used on the pistol frame. While this may be possible, I am still not of the opinion that mixing fonts was likely during this time (1941-42) manufacturing process.

tharpo · 10-06-2016, 12:31 PM

John,
Frame font and magazine fonts were different in 1941. Especially the "3"s". I did a study on this on Still's Forum.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ification-1941

Tom

mrerick · 10-06-2016, 02:20 PM

I just looked at the study Tom referred to, and the "3" digits on those magazines and the ones here look the same to me. so do the 6 and 9 digits. i must be missing something. The dies normally used on the frame of the gun were different than those used on the magazine.

I'm now leaning more to factory worker upside down stamping error.

Edward Tinker · 10-06-2016, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tharpo

John,
Frame font and magazine fonts were different in 1941. Especially the "3"s". I did a study on this on Still's Forum.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ification-1941

Tom

thank you, its a sticky now

snipershot1944 · 10-06-2016, 09:24 PM

I'm really appreciative of all of this dialogue. I've not purchased the pistol at this point. Thanks.

Patrick Sweeney · 10-13-2016, 04:15 PM

Any chance the mags were sanded and re-stamped back during the war?

10-05-2016, 10:02 PM	#1
snipershot1944 User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, part of the occupied Confederacy Posts: 300 Thanks: 15 Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts	Question on inverted serial letter suffix on Luger A dealer friend has an interesting u block 41/42 Luger with two matching mags. However the letter suffix on the frame is inverted. I'd appreciate any comments on the pistol and how much if any harm this does to value? David Snipershot1944@yahoo.com Attached Thumbnails

10-05-2016, 10:03 PM	#2
snipershot1944 User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, part of the occupied Confederacy Posts: 300 Thanks: 15 Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts	Mag photos Attached Thumbnails

10-06-2016, 10:27 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Two cents back at you John...the markings on the magazines are upside down "n". Neither open leg of a "u" have a "curl" at the end and there are two starting and ending strokes of a "u", both at the rounded bottom. Ed's tutorial (post #4) clearly shows this. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-06-2016, 10:37 AM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	The shape of the ground surface is that which you generally see only on factory ground magazine bottoms. If renumbered, the work was very well done, but I fear that things are not right. Take a close look at the "n" and "u" stamps documented here: http://lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/suffix.html and you'll see that the tails of the "n" and "u" are different. The magazines have upside down "n" characters, not "u" characters. And yes, the other explanation is that the worker that day stamped the magazines with an upside down letter suffix accidentally. Is this a one off that escaped inspection and got approval? Are other examples known? If someone was boosting them, my bet is that they would not have stamped the letters upside down. Of course, anything is possible. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-06-2016, 02:20 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	I just looked at the study Tom referred to, and the "3" digits on those magazines and the ones here look the same to me. so do the 6 and 9 digits. i must be missing something. The dies normally used on the frame of the gun were different than those used on the magazine. I'm now leaning more to factory worker upside down stamping error. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-05-2016, 10:04 PM	#3
snipershot1944 User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, part of the occupied Confederacy Posts: 300 Thanks: 15 Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts	Last pics Attached Thumbnails

10-05-2016, 10:26 PM	#5
snipershot1944 User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, part of the occupied Confederacy Posts: 300 Thanks: 15 Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts	Ed. I had glare issues with the pics and only a cell phone for pics. So I'm trying to figure out if the factory had a bad day or this was humped?

10-05-2016, 10:54 PM	#7
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I believe that was a gun I once owned...untouched,as brought back by a vet....the suffix is an "n" and for whatever reason the "n" was stamped upside down on the mags......was perplexed as to why at the time...concluded the mags were stamped like that from day one....

10-06-2016, 10:27 AM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'll agree that the mag bottoms look "shaved" from one angle, but looking at them from the sides I'm not seeing it. And to remove enough material to completely remove previous numbers would have to go fairly deep and would show on the side profile. No? dju

10-06-2016, 11:01 AM	#12
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 749 Thanks: 2,154 Thanked 629 Times in 339 Posts	or they did't notice the subtle differences.

10-06-2016, 11:04 AM	#13
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 438 Thanks: 661 Thanked 493 Times in 219 Posts	They are definitely upside down "n". Could be workman's error. Not sure what kind of jig they used as they stamped suffixes. But, I would really like to see the other side of the magazines. They should have the Haenel 122 code and the WaA Eagle 37 proofs and no P.08. And... subject to measuring the diameters of the bases, I am NOT prepared to write off these mags as fake or boosted. As always, JMVHO John

10-06-2016, 11:21 AM	#14
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I purchased the Pistol from an estate,probably 10 years ago......from the family of the Veteran who brought it back......he was a high ranking Canadian Army officer who also brought back a 2 digit Ser # MP38,a G41 Rifle amongst other prime examples of German WW2 Weapons....this pistol was brought back this way......factory mistake?....don't know for sure...there was no reason for the gun to have been played with

10-06-2016, 12:31 PM	#16
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 118 Thanked 383 Times in 158 Posts	John, Frame font and magazine fonts were different in 1941. Especially the "3"s". I did a study on this on Still's Forum. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ification-1941 Tom

10-06-2016, 09:24 PM	#19
snipershot1944 User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, part of the occupied Confederacy Posts: 300 Thanks: 15 Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts	I'm really appreciative of all of this dialogue. I've not purchased the pistol at this point. Thanks.

10-13-2016, 04:15 PM	#20
Patrick Sweeney User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 56 Times in 27 Posts	Any chance the mags were sanded and re-stamped back during the war?