Luger Definitions~

cirelaw · 08-10-2015, 01:20 PM

I have come across several conditions of lugers. For Example theres refinished, reworked, reblued, refurbished, replaced, shooters etc. Is there a standard that all can agree or are there too many variables, each being unique in an of its self like artistic paintings. depending on several traits! The blue book is no bible. Lugers are a separate testament each with individual psalms~ Each interpeted by so many in their own way! Words and descriptions are only an attempt. Can words adequately describe beauty? In most cases that is all we have. Maybe that is why they are so "COOL" Eric

ithacaartist · 08-10-2015, 05:29 PM

Well, most of the terms mentioned begin with "r".

To get the ball rolling,

refinished, means the bluing and/or straw colors were done again. Removal of the old finish is the wild card here. It might have been dipped for chemical removal only . It might have been media-blasted, which leaves tell-tale evidence of such. Worst case, it was buffed to prep for the new finish, which can range from a light smoothing of the surface to something that is obviously all rounded over corners and edges.

reworked, would mean it had parts replaced, barrel changed, maybe refinished, etc. Done by official/military armorers--or Bubba.

reblued, is the application of a new finish, whether rust blue or hot dip (salt) blue.

refurbished, might include new finish or chasing out the checkered pattern on the grips, generally, I'd think, anything needed to make the gun look or work better.

replaced, We needn't go over this one too much. Parts could be repro or original--but they can never be "original to the gun".

shooters are the guns that are least collectible, distanced from collectible originality by any or all of the above processes, or just plain old wear and tear. This is not to say that they are not desireable!

I'll add "restored", which is anything necessary to take a gun back to original-like condition. Restoration might include welding heavy pitting back level, making new grips, and probably refinishing. Once a gun is used, damaged, or messed with in any way, it is no longer original--which would be how it was when it left the factory gates--and there's no turning back after that.

cirelaw · 08-10-2015, 06:11 PM

You couldn't have said it no better! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I waited 15 years to have anyone make it so simple. Now we can all speak the same language!! My Hero!!!

Ben M. · 08-10-2015, 06:41 PM

Reanimated - bring back from the death

https://img1.etsystatic.com/052/0/70...27679_2rkh.jpg

Sergio Natali · 08-11-2015, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Well, most of the terms mentioned begin with "r".

To get the ball rolling,

refinished, means the bluing and/or straw colors were done again. Removal of the old finish is the wild card here. It might have been dipped for chemical removal only . It might have been media-blasted, which leaves tell-tale evidence of such. Worst case, it was buffed to prep for the new finish, which can range from a light smoothing of the surface to something that is obviously all rounded over corners and edges.

reworked, would mean it had parts replaced, barrel changed, maybe refinished, etc. Done by official/military armorers--or Bubba.

reblued, is the application of a new finish, whether rust blue or hot dip (salt) blue.

refurbished, might include new finish or chasing out the checkered pattern on the grips, generally, I'd think, anything needed to make the gun look or work better.

replaced, We needn't go over this one too much. Parts could be repro or original--but they can never be "original to the gun".

shooters are the guns that are least collectible, distanced from collectible originality by any or all of the above processes, or just plain old wear and tear. This is not to say that they are not desireable!

I'll add "restored", which is anything necessary to take a gun back to original-like condition. Restoration might include welding heavy pitting back level, making new grips, and probably refinishing. Once a gun is used, damaged, or messed with in any way, it is no longer original--which would be how it was when it left the factory gates--and there's no turning back after that.

David,

Thanks for the lesson, quite interesting, really I mean it.

Sergio

ithacaartist · 08-11-2015, 08:39 PM

[digression]I am kind of a "word guy" A few years back, while I was kept low by a bout of sciatica, I made an arrangement with Gerard Henrotin whereby I proofread "Luger Mechanical Features" and edited his text/descriptions to polish up the English a bit and re-phrase some of the descriptions slightly, to make stuff more accessible. He said it was his first Luger e-book, back when he was newer to the language. I find it kind of fun to attempt to make clear technical descriptions, and I think I succeeded. The process also helped me get the Parabellum's action down cold. Once the mechanical arrangements are understood, it's a little easier to remedy issues in function!

p.s. You can find the full list of e-books here http://hlebooks.com/ebook/liste01.htm They are great for learning about how any of the subject guns works![/digression]

Sergio Natali · 08-12-2015, 03:08 AM

David

I think that we can explain things so well ONLY if we have very clear ideas, so again chapeu.

Rgds

Sergio

Dwight Gruber · 08-12-2015, 02:12 PM

Getting back on topic, after the pointless e-book digression.

Welcome to my soap-box.

“Reblue” means that the surface bluing has been replaced, often without regard to the originally appropriate method (rust blue or chemical salt blue). Its corollary is “re-straw”, replacing the surface strawing of appropriate parts.

“Refinish” is an imprecise, often deceptive description which combines more than one type of surface modification (chemical or physical), in unspecified combination, without regard to craftsmanship. “Arsenal refinish” is a meaningless and deceptive marketing term, intended to increase value by implying that work was done by some official or approved entity.

“Re-work” is a meaningless description, thoughtlessly used as a catch-all to indicate post-manufacture maintenance, or repair or replacement of unspecified parts.

“Refurbish” is another meaningless term, generally inclusive of the concepts embodied in “reblue”, “refinish”, and “rework”.

“Restored” is almost always a marketing deception or collection aggrandizement, used to increase the value or status of a Luger pistol. It implies bringing the surface of the pistol to original, factory-finish condition. It is meaningless when used alone. To properly describe a pistol as “restored” one should ideally know (and report) the gun’s pre-restoration condition, and the identity of the craftsman performing the work is required.

--Dwight

cirelaw · 08-15-2015, 04:03 PM

Dwight, Is Teds' magic considered a 'restoration'?

Dwight Gruber · 08-15-2015, 04:32 PM

Ted has restored some Lugers.

--Dwight

cirelaw · 08-15-2015, 05:15 PM

Thanks Dwight, Ted is displaying his beautiful work on his facebook page~~ https://www.facebook.com/search/str/...e/keywords_top

cirelaw · 08-15-2015, 06:13 PM

I found a great article on the subject~~ Here is just a part of their article~http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-research/fake!.aspx

Zorba · 08-15-2015, 07:18 PM

Another "R" word: "RattleCan"!!!

nukem556 · 08-15-2015, 09:56 PM

"Frosted bore" - means "looks like a sewer pipe"

DonVoigt · 08-15-2015, 10:23 PM

I always have wondered what kind of frosting would be in a bore!

The other descriptions that "frost" me are:

"Debris in the grooves"- Best I can tell this means black rust.

"bore needs cleaning, will probably improve"- means I'm too lazy to spend two weeks cleaning the bore and don't think it will look any better if I did,so you waste your time.

cirelaw · 08-15-2015, 10:59 PM

There should be a slug you can fire and will do the dirty work!

sheepherder · 08-16-2015, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

There should be a slug you can fire and will do the dirty work!

There actually is something like that. I don't know the name but it's used in auto engine intake manifolds, acts like Simichrome Polish, and is hydraulically pushed through the inlet & exhaust tracts. Looks like a big stream of toothpaste (which is also a polish) and is endless; the paste is picked up and pushed back through repeatedly. Gives a mirror surface to the passages.

Olle · 08-16-2015, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

There actually is something like that. I don't know the name but it's used in auto engine intake manifolds, acts like Simichrome Polish, and is hydraulically pushed through the inlet & exhaust tracts. Looks like a big stream of toothpaste (which is also a polish) and is endless; the paste is picked up and pushed back through repeatedly. Gives a mirror surface to the passages.

It's called "extrude honing": http://extrudehoneafm.com/. It's a really neat method as it mimics the gas flow, so it tends to remove the restrictions and leave the rest alone. I was thinking about extrude honing a set of cast iron exhaust manifolds for my Chevelle and making them into sneaky "sleeper headers", but the cost was prohibitive.

For guns, there's something called "fire lapping", you shoot a bullet coated with abrasive. You can even buy bullets impregnated with abrasive for the purpose: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/847...ster-box-of-20 . These are made for lapping new barrels, but you could probably clean out a dark bore with them as well. The fire lapping idea sounds a bit like snake oil to me, but it might work.

DonVoigt · 08-16-2015, 08:57 AM

I have used fire lapping on a new barrel, it basically accelerates the "smoothing" of the bore(this was a target rifle). There was a noticeable improvement in accuracy.

I do not think I would use it for "cleaning". If the bore is not too bad, regular ball ammo will help clean it up for folks too lazy to do it manually.

If the bore is really bad, nothing will help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

It's called "extrude honing": http://extrudehoneafm.com/. It's a really neat method as it mimics the gas flow, so it tends to remove the restrictions and leave the rest alone. I was thinking about extrude honing a set of cast iron exhaust manifolds for my Chevelle and making them into sneaky "sleeper headers", but the cost was prohibitive.

For guns, there's something called "fire lapping", you shoot a bullet coated with abrasive. You can even buy bullets impregnated with abrasive for the purpose: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/847...ster-box-of-20 . These are made for lapping new barrels, but you could probably clean out a dark bore with them as well. The fire lapping idea sounds a bit like snake oil to me, but it might work.

Sergio Natali · 08-16-2015, 09:32 AM

Some people believe that to clean dirty barrels is enough shooting few fmj balls and almost by magic all the lead comes out, infortunatly that's wrong, magic wands exist only in fairy tales and in Photoshop.
As far as "fire lapping rounds" are concerned some people use them on cheap factory barrels but I wouldn't use any lapping round in a custom barrel.

Sergio

08-10-2015, 01:20 PM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Luger Definitions~ I have come across several conditions of lugers. For Example theres refinished, reworked, reblued, refurbished, replaced, shooters etc. Is there a standard that all can agree or are there too many variables, each being unique in an of its self like artistic paintings. depending on several traits! The blue book is no bible. Lugers are a separate testament each with individual psalms~ Each interpeted by so many in their own way! Words and descriptions are only an attempt. Can words adequately describe beauty? In most cases that is all we have. Maybe that is why they are so "COOL" Eric

08-10-2015, 05:29 PM	#2
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,368 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	Well, most of the terms mentioned begin with "r". To get the ball rolling, refinished, means the bluing and/or straw colors were done again. Removal of the old finish is the wild card here. It might have been dipped for chemical removal only . It might have been media-blasted, which leaves tell-tale evidence of such. Worst case, it was buffed to prep for the new finish, which can range from a light smoothing of the surface to something that is obviously all rounded over corners and edges. reworked, would mean it had parts replaced, barrel changed, maybe refinished, etc. Done by official/military armorers--or Bubba. reblued, is the application of a new finish, whether rust blue or hot dip (salt) blue. refurbished, might include new finish or chasing out the checkered pattern on the grips, generally, I'd think, anything needed to make the gun look or work better. replaced, We needn't go over this one too much. Parts could be repro or original--but they can never be "original to the gun". shooters are the guns that are least collectible, distanced from collectible originality by any or all of the above processes, or just plain old wear and tear. This is not to say that they are not desireable! I'll add "restored", which is anything necessary to take a gun back to original-like condition. Restoration might include welding heavy pitting back level, making new grips, and probably refinishing. Once a gun is used, damaged, or messed with in any way, it is no longer original--which would be how it was when it left the factory gates--and there's no turning back after that. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-11-2015, 08:39 PM	#6
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,368 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	[digression]I am kind of a "word guy" A few years back, while I was kept low by a bout of sciatica, I made an arrangement with Gerard Henrotin whereby I proofread "Luger Mechanical Features" and edited his text/descriptions to polish up the English a bit and re-phrase some of the descriptions slightly, to make stuff more accessible. He said it was his first Luger e-book, back when he was newer to the language. I find it kind of fun to attempt to make clear technical descriptions, and I think I succeeded. The process also helped me get the Parabellum's action down cold. Once the mechanical arrangements are understood, it's a little easier to remedy issues in function! p.s. You can find the full list of e-books here http://hlebooks.com/ebook/liste01.htm They are great for learning about how any of the subject guns works![/digression] __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-12-2015, 03:08 AM	#7
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	David I think that we can explain things so well ONLY if we have very clear ideas, so again chapeu. Rgds Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

08-12-2015, 02:12 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Getting back on topic, after the pointless e-book digression. Welcome to my soap-box. “Reblue” means that the surface bluing has been replaced, often without regard to the originally appropriate method (rust blue or chemical salt blue). Its corollary is “re-straw”, replacing the surface strawing of appropriate parts. “Refinish” is an imprecise, often deceptive description which combines more than one type of surface modification (chemical or physical), in unspecified combination, without regard to craftsmanship. “Arsenal refinish” is a meaningless and deceptive marketing term, intended to increase value by implying that work was done by some official or approved entity. “Re-work” is a meaningless description, thoughtlessly used as a catch-all to indicate post-manufacture maintenance, or repair or replacement of unspecified parts. “Refurbish” is another meaningless term, generally inclusive of the concepts embodied in “reblue”, “refinish”, and “rework”. “Restored” is almost always a marketing deception or collection aggrandizement, used to increase the value or status of a Luger pistol. It implies bringing the surface of the pistol to original, factory-finish condition. It is meaningless when used alone. To properly describe a pistol as “restored” one should ideally know (and report) the gun’s pre-restoration condition, and the identity of the craftsman performing the work is required. --Dwight Last edited by Dwight Gruber; 08-15-2015 at 07:57 PM.

08-10-2015, 06:11 PM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	You couldn't have said it no better! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I waited 15 years to have anyone make it so simple. Now we can all speak the same language!! My Hero!!!

08-10-2015, 06:41 PM	#4
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 497 Thanks: 96 Thanked 144 Times in 89 Posts	Reanimated - bring back from the death https://img1.etsystatic.com/052/0/70...27679_2rkh.jpg

08-15-2015, 04:03 PM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Dwight, Is Teds' magic considered a 'restoration'?

08-15-2015, 04:32 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Ted has restored some Lugers. --Dwight

08-15-2015, 05:15 PM	#11
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Thanks Dwight, Ted is displaying his beautiful work on his facebook page~~ https://www.facebook.com/search/str/...e/keywords_top

08-15-2015, 06:13 PM	#12
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	I found a great article on the subject~~ Here is just a part of their article~http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-research/fake!.aspx Attached Thumbnails

08-15-2015, 07:18 PM	#13
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 528 Times in 290 Posts	Another "R" word: "RattleCan"!!!

08-15-2015, 09:56 PM	#14
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	"Frosted bore" - means "looks like a sewer pipe"

08-15-2015, 10:23 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	I always have wondered what kind of frosting would be in a bore! The other descriptions that "frost" me are: "Debris in the grooves"- Best I can tell this means black rust. "bore needs cleaning, will probably improve"- means I'm too lazy to spend two weeks cleaning the bore and don't think it will look any better if I did,so you waste your time.

08-15-2015, 10:59 PM	#16
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	There should be a slug you can fire and will do the dirty work!

08-16-2015, 09:32 AM	#20
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Some people believe that to clean dirty barrels is enough shooting few fmj balls and almost by magic all the lead comes out, infortunatly that's wrong, magic wands exist only in fairy tales and in Photoshop. As far as "fire lapping rounds" are concerned some people use them on cheap factory barrels but I wouldn't use any lapping round in a custom barrel. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.