Dimension of number-stamps

[Empereur]

Hello all,

First, I should maybe introduce myself a bit: I'm a Belgian Luger-enthusiast who's interested in all sorts of guns as well as history and antiques (and cars and a lot of other things, but as I'm not a millionaire, a lot is limited to solely "interested in"...). Now I'm in my mid-twenties and since a couple of years I'm a member of a shooting range and I'm allowed to shoot and own guns (in Belgium, that's unfortunately not as easy and straightforward as in most parts of the USA). I don't own a Luger yet, but that will undoubtedly change in the years to come.

Although I've been a member of this forum for 4-5 years, I've almost never posted anything. There are a lot of experts here, from whom I've since then learned a lot.

Now, on to the real question I'd like to post: the last months, I've had the luck to take a look at some M1900-Lugers at a dealer, and the following question popped into my mind: is there anything known about the size of the different number-stamps used to stamp the (last 2) digits of the serial number on the Luger-parts? On some parts, they are smaller than on others (for example on the back side of the middle toggle link), but is there anyone who knows the correct dimensions?

I realise this is not an "everyday-question", but that's the reason why I'm posting it on this forum, because I simply can't find an answer for it.

Thanks in advance,

[Sergio Natali]

Tim

As you probably know the following parts should have sn on them:

frame (s/n with a suffix)
under barrel (s/n with/without suffix)
left side of receiver (s/n without suffix)

and all the following parts must have at leats 2 digits stamped on them:

breechblock, extractor, front and rear toggle links, firing pin, extractor, sear bar, takedown lever, sideplate, trigger, safety bar and safety lever, hold open, grips, grip screws (on Erfurts)

As far as the figures size I don't think they had precise standard measurements for them as I gather those guns were mostly hand finished.

My 2 cents hope I helped


Sergio

[mrerick]

The dimension of the dies, and their typeface changed subtly from time to time.

The government acceptance requirements didn't specify the size or typeface of the die digits.

The most useful thing I have found is to have seen known good serial number die stampings. You can do this with actual pistols (if you know people with collections) or in well done photographs. The Sturgess book would be my go to reference. You can get a PDF copy of the book from Simpson Ltd at a reasonable price.

[John Sabato]

The size of the figures varies depending on when they were stamped, the original size of the stamps, and the mood of the stamper when he took the stamp out of his toolbox... and how hard they were struck with the hammer...

In other words, the only thing consistent about the numbers are most guns stamped at the same time, had SIMILAR size stamps. There is no "correct" size. It just had to fit the part being stamped...

[Empereur]

Thank you all for sharing your insights!

[Edward Tinker]

Well, I would disagree; from our book Simson Lugers; which came from the 1910 governmental requirements that Erfurt followed:

PISTOL 08 Markings (1910):
Instruction on Marking the Pistol 08, with an Attached Drawing. Berlin 1910.
(Vorschrift für die Stempelung der Pistole 08 nebst einer Zeichmung. Berlin 1910).
With all amendments up to and including 1914.
(Source: Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv, Abteilung IV Kriegsarchiv, Munchen, File AS. V. 73/13).
1. Barrel, finished: 3.2mm-high inspector's mark.
2. Front sight, milled: 2mm-high inspector's mark
3. Receiver, hardened: 3.2mm inspector's mark, plus the year of manufacture (3.2mm high, 9mm wide)
4. Ejector, hardened: 2mm-high inspector's mark
5. Sear bar, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
6. Breechblock, hardened: 3.2mm inspector's mark
7. Extractor, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark, plus "Geladen" on the left side
8. Firing pin, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
9. Firing-pin spring retainer, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
10.Front link, hardened: 3.2mm inspector's mark, plus the name of the manufacturer (size not specified)
11. Rear link, hardened: 3.2mm inspector's mark
12.Coupling link, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
13.Recoil lever, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
14.Recoil-spring bar, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
15.Frame, hardened: 3.2mm inspector's mark, plus "Gesichert" on the left side
15a. Hold-open latch: 2mm inspector's mark
16.Locking bolt, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
17.Trigger, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
18.Trigger lever, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
19.Side plate milled: 3.2mm inspector's mark
20.Magazine latch, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
21. Magazine, finished: 3.2mm inspector's mark
21a. Magazine fitted: 2.1mm inspector's mark
21b. Magazine, bottom piece: 3.2mm inspector's mark
22.Safety-bar, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
23.Safety lever, hardened: 2mm inspector's mark
24.Grips, finished: 4.2mm inspector's mark
25.Grip screws, hardened: 2.0mm inspector's mark

PISTOL FINISHED AS FOLLOWS:
26a Pistol ready for power-proof and shooting-in:
·Barrel: full pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals.
·Receiver: 3.2mm-high inspector's mark, plus the full pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals.
·Breechblock: last two digits of the pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals.
·Extractor: last two digits of the pistol number in l.5mm-high numerals.
·Firing pin: last two digits of the pistol number in 1.5mm-high numerals.
·Front link: last two digits of the pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals.
·Rear link: last two digits of the pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals.
·Hold-open latch: last two digits of the pistol number in 1.5mm-high numerals.
·Trigger: last two digits of the pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals.
·Side plate: last two digits of the pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals.
·Trigger lever: last two digits of the pistol number in 1.5mm-high numerals (Simsons are not numbered).
·Safety-bar: last two digits of the pistol number in 1.5mm-high numerals.
·Safety lever: last two digits of the pistol number in 1.5mm-high numerals.
·Grips: last two digits of the pistol number in 2.1mm-high numerals (Simsons have full serial number).
·Barrel and front sight: alter sight adjustment, a chisel mark, 3 to 4mm high, of equal length on both parts.
·Barrel and receiver: alter sight adjustment, a chisel mark, 3 to 4mm high, of equal length on both parts.
26b Pistol after power proofing:
·Barrel: a heraldic eagle, 3.2mm high and 2.9mm wide.
·Receiver: a heraldic eagle, 3.2.mm high and 2.9mm wide.
·Breech block: a heraldic eagle, 3.2mm high and 2.9mm wide.

26c Pistol after shooting-in:
·Receiver: 3.2mm-high inspector's mark.
·Barrel: the caliber (in mm), in 1.5mm-high numerals.

I would think at least for military they followed this, commercial perhaps not.

[tomaustin]

alright, so who had the responsibility to affix the stamp---the guy who performed the last step in the assembly? surely there were more than one guy/gal fitting parts on any given luger.........trying to coordinate that step had to be a b@#$%.......

[Dwight Gruber]

One might suspect that the army serial number size instructions simply adopted the practices already being utilized by DWM.

As far as actually stamping the parts, remember that the serial numbers were stamped after the final fitting and assembly, ready for proofing. It is easiest to imagine that a single technician disassembled a completed pistol, stamped the parts, and reassembled the pistol.

--Dwight

[Empereur]

Thank you, again!

Mr. Tinker, are those the only (governmental) requirements that have survived the years?

As almost every (beginning) collector says: "I should buy some more books"

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Empereur

Thank you, again!

Mr. Tinker, are those the only (governmental) requirements that have survived the years?

As almost every (beginning) collector says: "I should buy some more books"

Goertz's books in Deutch has a lot of info - I have the german text and english texts (seperate books)...

[Empereur]

"The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols" by Joachim Gortz & Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess is on my "to buy-list", however, $ 300 is a considerable amount of money.

Does anyone know whether the specifications of the size of the stamps on Swiss 1900-models are recorded?

(I'm asking this because I've seen some variety in the collection of my dealer)

[spacecoast]

"The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols" by Joachim Gortz & Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess is on my "to buy-list", however, $ 300 is a considerable amount of money.

If you call Simpson LTD you can get a copy of the book in PDF form (on a DVD) for $50 shipped (perhaps a little more to Belgium). It makes all the text searchable, which is really nice. I copied the file to my desktop for easy access.