ID a unique bringback Luger

[mvaughn25]

My great uncle brought back a number of souvenirs from WW2, including an Iron Cross (Second Class), an Honour Cross and a Veteran's Breast Eagle pin. All of which would indicate an German soldier that had fought in WW1, also serving in WW2. I think the Luger may have also been this soldiers weapon in WW1. It is a commercial model, early edition. Inside the magazine well, there is a "Prv", and I have read that may indicate a a series of commercial Lugers purchased by Germany for resale to officers. There is also a picture of a woman in the grip, and I am not sure if it is my great aunt Ludie May, or if it was the sweetheart of the original owner of this Luger. It was all in a nice shadow box, but I have removed the Luger to place it in a more secure place and not hanging on my wall.

Any pointers on how to definitively the date for this Luger, or clues on it's value, would be appreciated.

[CJS57]

Love those "Sweet Heart" grips! Part of the guns history but diehard collectors will blanch. The Luger is a 1906 Commercial model. Nice find!

[alanint]

Your Great Uncle is the likely candidate for the grip modification. Rarely did German Soldiers modify their weapons in a decorative fashion.

[Norme]

Hi Mark, Welcome to the forum! Thanks for posting your beautiful Commercial Luger, a true family heirloom. I would make no effort to remove that photo, it's part of the gun's history now.
The holster looks Imperial, does it have any markings inside or on the back?
Regards, Norm

[Ron Wood]

A very nice Luger. It is a 1908 Commercial in 9mm. A real prize and I agree with Norm that, while it does detract somewhat from a pure collector standpoint, the photo grip is a charming part of the gun's history and should remain with the piece.

[Sergio Natali]

I agree with all the previous posts, it's a bautiful Luger, but as a collector I'm a bit of a purist, and I would definitely prefer a gun with its original untouched grips, still yours are particularly nice and in fact deserve to remain where they have been in these past decades.

Sergio

[wlyon]

Buy a set of repro grips and put the originals up for safe keeping. Agree they belong with the gun. Bill

[DavidJayUden]

It would be interesting to determine if the woman is indeed Ludie Mae, or someone else. Are the grips each numbered to the gun?
This certainly is a wonderful heirloom.
As stated above, it is a 1908 Commercial model, no stock lug or hold-open (?). The others can date it better but I'm guessing it was made in the 1908-1913 range.
I'm not clear on the rationale behind the second set of numbers under the barrel (118.36?). Also, are the numbers on the front of the frame 42356?. Any letter beneath the numbers?
The witness mark doesn't line up perfectly.
Interesting fodder for discussion, as it's been bloody quiet around here lately.
dju

[mvaughn25]

The weapon is in good shape, I had considered having a gunsmith (familiar with Lugers) give it a good look and then maybe take my cousin to the range and fire it. However, if I use this, I will replace the grips to preserve them and not let the picture get damaged from use (like Bill mentioned).

If I have read correctly, model 1908 refers to the year the German Army adopted this weapon, regardless of the production date? At one point, I thought I found a chart that placed this series of serial numbers to 1907-1908, can anyone point me to a way to verify that?

David, I have also wondered about the 118.36 under the barrel. I saw one reference that it was related to the caliber? Also the serial number on the barrel and front of frame is 42856 (8 and not 3 in the middle).

This all looked great in the shadow box, but I cannot leave a valuable/dangerous weapon in a simple shadow box on my wall. I will place a picture of my uncle in a Jeep (somewhere in Europe) where the weapon was. I will check the holster for markings later. It still has the tool in a pouch at the top and the current wooden bottom magazine was in the holster. My cousin removed the original magazine when he put it in the shadow box, and should have it around the house.

Any information on the "Prv" stamp in the magazine well? I have read it designated groups of commercial weapons bought by the German government for resale to soldiers. Any good documentation on that? With the WW2 era medals (issued just before hostility broke out), issued to WW1 veterans, it is interested provenance that this could have been captured from a soldier that not only server in both wars, but possibly used this weapon in both as a personal purchase.

[mvaughn25]

I essentially want to document all of this and place it with the shadow box as I rebuild it in the next month or so, for future reference. I am documenting the coins, pins, medals and everything to preserve that for future generations.

Any valuations are for curiosity or possibly insurance, this weapon will never leave our family and will always stay with the other items. Never understand how people could part with family heirlooms like this.

[DavidJayUden]

The numbers regarding bore diameter are generally something close to 8.83 or 8.84 (land to land measurement). Yours looks like 118.36 if I am reading it correctly.
Regarding value, from a purely business standpoint, all sentiment aside, maybe $1400-$1650 for the gun and holster. It would be higher had the grip not been mod'ed. But mind you that is my WAG, and may not be how more experienced collectors see it.
But if I were to insure it I would go with $2k.
dju

[Norme]

The 118,36 is a bore measurement now archaic for pistols, but still in use for shotguns (12 bore, 16 bore etc.). It's the size of bore that would accommodate lead balls 118.36 to the pound.
Imperial era Commercial Lugers numbered into 5 digits with no suffixes.
Regards, Norm

[mvaughn25]

Norm, is there a way to narrow down the year by the serial number and other markings? If not, what year range does "Imperial Era" cover?

Thanks,
-Mark

[Norme]

Hi Mark, The "Imperial Era" as far as Luger collectors are concerned means anything earlier than Nov 1918 when Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated. I don't collect Commercial Lugers so can't help much with a date for yours, but I would think about 1914. Maybe a Commercial collector could narrow it down further.
Regards, Norm

[Sergio Natali]

I'm not an expert but considering that the date was printed only from 1910 (but not on commercial guns) and we find the stock lug only on lugers made after 1914 this gun I guess must have been made around 1908.

IMHO

Sergio

[George Anderson]

It's a BUG proof so it probably dates 1908-1910. In your pistol's condition it is pretty scarce and with the Prv marking probably worth close to $3000.

[Ron Wood]

George's estimate is pretty close to the mark. Not a common garden variety Luger at all.

[mvaughn25]

George, am I right on the "Prv" marking designating a weapon bought by the Getman gov, to be sold to soldiers? Only found a few references to that, but nothing definitive.

[DavidJayUden]

Mark:
There you have it. You'll not find more expert opinions anywhere.
dju

[wlyon]

Nice luger. For the record the stock lug appeared in 1913. In 1913 one may find both. I have a 1913 DWM with stock lug serial number 4012 b. I believe this is near the serial number where the stock lug appeared. Bill