1917 Erfurt anything special?

SunSpot · 05-08-2014, 09:47 PM

New to Board here, I did some reading before I bought this. Numbers match on everything except magazine. Bore is in nice shape really, little pitting toward chamber but rifling looks nice. shoots great.
I am puzzled by the engraving.. I assume someone's name "v. Issendorff" no idea really.
Was hoping some of you well versed souls here could tell me more. (overall)

thanks

Edward Tinker · 05-08-2014, 09:56 PM

Jeff, welcome to the forum.

Your pictures are very small. It's better to post them here anyway.

Looks like a 1917 Erfurt... Ok, I would guess the engraving is after the war?
Possible by a German, but usually by a gi IMO.

SunSpot · 05-08-2014, 10:05 PM

Thanks.. I will redo the pics tomorrow and try this again!

John Sabato · 05-09-2014, 08:25 AM

SunSpot, as a new member you may not know that you can edit your post for changes by using the pencil/paper icon in the right bottom corner of your post.

Sergio Natali · 05-09-2014, 09:30 AM

Jeff,

Welcome to this forum; I agree your pics are a bit too tiny, but I think your Luger seems an honest WWI gun, is it all matching?
"Issendorff"engraved in gotic characters is probably somebody's surname, maybe some sort of trench art?
My 2 cents

Sergio

SunSpot · 05-09-2014, 12:42 PM

Ok fixed the pictures.

thanks for replies! Yes it is all matching, including firing pin and at least one of the grips. (couldnt tell on the other) only the magazine is not original... appears to be an aftermarket of some type.

DavidJayUden · 05-09-2014, 12:44 PM

They are all special.
And if this one could talk...
dju

JTD · 05-09-2014, 12:48 PM

It is a 1917 Erfurt military luger someone personallized. It looks like finish is pretty worn, but pics are small, and hard to give a better evaluation from them. I have several personalized lugers in my collection, and think they are cool. Others may consider them de-faced, as the name is not an official marking. I would not mind having this one in my safe. John

JTD · 05-09-2014, 12:54 PM

Better pics. Finish is a bit thin, but do not do anything to it, as in refinishing. I like it. John

Ron Wood · 05-09-2014, 01:08 PM

I agree that it is just fine as is and shouldn't be refinished. It belonged to a person of noble lineage as the "v" is an abbreviation for "von".

SunSpot · 05-09-2014, 08:24 PM

Thank you all

I like it too. it "spoke to me" laying there under the glass case. I always wanted one anyway. It also told me to buy its little brother - 1944 byf P38 - sitting next to it.
cant have enough i guess.

alanint · 05-09-2014, 08:55 PM

I would start researching the name. This could get interesting!!

Vlim · 05-10-2014, 05:43 AM

von Issendorff appears to be a well established family in Germany, so it shouldn't be too hard to find out more about it.

http://www.schlossarchiv.de/herren/i/Issendorff.htm

George Anderson · 05-12-2014, 03:09 PM

I've been on the road and was only today able to reference the 1914 Rangliste. There was only one officer named von Issendorf listed in active service in 1914. He was a Leutnant in the Leib Dragoner-Regiment, Hessian Nr. 24. He is quite likely the long past owner.

SunSpot · 05-12-2014, 10:16 PM

Wow.. Thanks!!

SunSpot · 05-13-2014, 06:40 AM

Would it be safe to assume this was kept by von Issendorff after the war and engraved then, or did they engrave them for officers during the war?

DavidJayUden · 05-13-2014, 07:16 AM

It is routinely espoused here that military policy strictly forbid "personalizing" an issued bit of equipment, under penalty. But we also hear of officers purchasing their own sidearms.
Personally, I'd bet that the engraving came after the conflict, not before or during. But let's see what others have to say. Although in the end, it will all be speculation.
dju

roadkill1 · 05-13-2014, 07:41 AM

SunSpot/Jeff:

Kept by v. Issendorff after the war and engraved then, during (or before the war) for officers?

This is an interesting question as it relates to your Luger. Generally speaking, officers in the Imperial German Army had to buy their own pistols. Because there were may types of pistols approved for them to buy and use, if they chose a Luger, the Luger would typically have been a commercial model. In this regard, there are examples of Lugers "personalized" before and most probably during the war.

A military proofed/marked Erfurt dated "1917" most typically would have been issued to enlisted soldiers. To have an officer purchase this Luger and and then personalized it (either then or after the War, would not followed their normal procedures. Having said that, at this stage of the War, it is understandable how "normal procedures" may not have always been or could be followed. Indeed, v. Issendorff could have lost or other wise been separated from his original Luger and could have obtained this Luger as a "battlefield pick-up" and continued using it for the remaining portion of the War.

Trying to understand, place into context and then decipher these historical puzzles that Lugers often present is what, at least to me, makes this hobby/passion so intriguing!!!

You clearly have a wonderful piece of history……congrats.

Ron

Sergio Natali · 05-13-2014, 09:58 AM

Ronald,

I agree you are probably right, although as far as I know, the German "Imperial Army" existed in a period when the nobility supplied a great part of the officers, and at the time officers wore swords and perhaps only some small caliber privately bought pistols were used by them, in fact the higher was the rank the smaller was the sidearm.

roadkill1 · 05-13-2014, 11:07 AM

Sergio:

As an individual who also is of Italian Heritage but I unfortunately do not speak the language well, I believe a correct reply to your post is, "Si e hero!"

Certainly before and at the beginning of the War, the nobility did supply a large part of the officers. During 1917 and 1918 though, the demand for officers, particularly in the lower ranks, far exceeded those that could come from noble families even in the Infantry and Cavalry.

I particularly like and agree with your signature line, "Always buy the gun, not the story." The qualities of the gun speak for themselves. The qualities of the related gun's story always seem to demand more research often difficult to accomplish. This is particularly relevant with this fine and interesting Luger!!

Ron Sparacino

05-08-2014, 09:47 PM	#1
SunSpot User Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1917 Erfurt anything special? New to Board here, I did some reading before I bought this. Numbers match on everything except magazine. Bore is in nice shape really, little pitting toward chamber but rifling looks nice. shoots great. I am puzzled by the engraving.. I assume someone's name "v. Issendorff" no idea really. Was hoping some of you well versed souls here could tell me more. (overall) thanks Last edited by SunSpot; 05-09-2014 at 12:41 PM. Reason: guess i need to fix the pictures.

05-08-2014, 09:56 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Jeff, welcome to the forum. Your pictures are very small. It's better to post them here anyway. Looks like a 1917 Erfurt... Ok, I would guess the engraving is after the war? Possible by a German, but usually by a gi IMO. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-09-2014, 08:25 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	SunSpot, as a new member you may not know that you can edit your post for changes by using the pencil/paper icon in the right bottom corner of your post. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-09-2014, 09:30 AM	#5
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Jeff, Welcome to this forum; I agree your pics are a bit too tiny, but I think your Luger seems an honest WWI gun, is it all matching? "Issendorff"engraved in gotic characters is probably somebody's surname, maybe some sort of trench art? My 2 cents Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list. Last edited by Sergio Natali; 05-09-2014 at 03:33 PM.

05-09-2014, 01:08 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	I agree that it is just fine as is and shouldn't be refinished. It belonged to a person of noble lineage as the "v" is an abbreviation for "von". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-08-2014, 10:05 PM	#3
SunSpot User Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks.. I will redo the pics tomorrow and try this again!

05-09-2014, 12:42 PM	#6
SunSpot User Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok fixed the pictures. thanks for replies! Yes it is all matching, including firing pin and at least one of the grips. (couldnt tell on the other) only the magazine is not original... appears to be an aftermarket of some type.

05-09-2014, 12:44 PM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	They are all special. And if this one could talk... dju

05-09-2014, 12:48 PM	#8
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 428 Thanks: 218 Thanked 410 Times in 151 Posts	It is a 1917 Erfurt military luger someone personallized. It looks like finish is pretty worn, but pics are small, and hard to give a better evaluation from them. I have several personalized lugers in my collection, and think they are cool. Others may consider them de-faced, as the name is not an official marking. I would not mind having this one in my safe. John

05-09-2014, 12:54 PM	#9
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 428 Thanks: 218 Thanked 410 Times in 151 Posts	Better pics. Finish is a bit thin, but do not do anything to it, as in refinishing. I like it. John

05-09-2014, 08:24 PM	#11
SunSpot User Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all I like it too. it "spoke to me" laying there under the glass case. I always wanted one anyway. It also told me to buy its little brother - 1944 byf P38 - sitting next to it. cant have enough i guess.

05-09-2014, 08:55 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	I would start researching the name. This could get interesting!!

05-10-2014, 05:43 AM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	von Issendorff appears to be a well established family in Germany, so it shouldn't be too hard to find out more about it. http://www.schlossarchiv.de/herren/i/Issendorff.htm

05-12-2014, 03:09 PM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I've been on the road and was only today able to reference the 1914 Rangliste. There was only one officer named von Issendorf listed in active service in 1914. He was a Leutnant in the Leib Dragoner-Regiment, Hessian Nr. 24. He is quite likely the long past owner.

05-12-2014, 10:16 PM	#15
SunSpot User Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow.. Thanks!!

05-13-2014, 06:40 AM	#16
SunSpot User Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Would it be safe to assume this was kept by von Issendorff after the war and engraved then, or did they engrave them for officers during the war?

05-13-2014, 07:16 AM	#17
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It is routinely espoused here that military policy strictly forbid "personalizing" an issued bit of equipment, under penalty. But we also hear of officers purchasing their own sidearms. Personally, I'd bet that the engraving came after the conflict, not before or during. But let's see what others have to say. Although in the end, it will all be speculation. dju

05-13-2014, 07:41 AM	#18
roadkill1 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Virginia Posts: 127 Thanks: 166 Thanked 129 Times in 63 Posts	SunSpot/Jeff: Kept by v. Issendorff after the war and engraved then, during (or before the war) for officers? This is an interesting question as it relates to your Luger. Generally speaking, officers in the Imperial German Army had to buy their own pistols. Because there were may types of pistols approved for them to buy and use, if they chose a Luger, the Luger would typically have been a commercial model. In this regard, there are examples of Lugers "personalized" before and most probably during the war. A military proofed/marked Erfurt dated "1917" most typically would have been issued to enlisted soldiers. To have an officer purchase this Luger and and then personalized it (either then or after the War, would not followed their normal procedures. Having said that, at this stage of the War, it is understandable how "normal procedures" may not have always been or could be followed. Indeed, v. Issendorff could have lost or other wise been separated from his original Luger and could have obtained this Luger as a "battlefield pick-up" and continued using it for the remaining portion of the War. Trying to understand, place into context and then decipher these historical puzzles that Lugers often present is what, at least to me, makes this hobby/passion so intriguing!!! You clearly have a wonderful piece of history……congrats. Ron

05-13-2014, 09:58 AM	#19
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Ronald, I agree you are probably right, although as far as I know, the German "Imperial Army" existed in a period when the nobility supplied a great part of the officers, and at the time officers wore swords and perhaps only some small caliber privately bought pistols were used by them, in fact the higher was the rank the smaller was the sidearm. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

05-13-2014, 11:07 AM	#20
roadkill1 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Virginia Posts: 127 Thanks: 166 Thanked 129 Times in 63 Posts	Sergio: As an individual who also is of Italian Heritage but I unfortunately do not speak the language well, I believe a correct reply to your post is, "Si e hero!" Certainly before and at the beginning of the War, the nobility did supply a large part of the officers. During 1917 and 1918 though, the demand for officers, particularly in the lower ranks, far exceeded those that could come from noble families even in the Infantry and Cavalry. I particularly like and agree with your signature line, "Always buy the gun, not the story." The qualities of the gun speak for themselves. The qualities of the related gun's story always seem to demand more research often difficult to accomplish. This is particularly relevant with this fine and interesting Luger!! Ron Sparacino