What to do with my 9x21 Luger

[Blasfimus]

So I bought a shooter 9x21 luger today being told it was just 9mm luger. It has mixed parts and the barrel says "Made In Italy". everything is as It should be, But this barrel was made in italy FOR italian civilian type 9mm rounds. I would just sell it and buy another but I dont think anybodys going to want it. Any idea how I might maybe sell this to someone over seas or anything? any help would be appreciated.
Thanks-
Scott

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Blasfimus

So I bought a shooter 9x21 luger today being told it was just 9mm luger. It has mixed parts and the barrel says "Made In Italy". everything is as It should be, But this barrel was made in italy FOR italian civilian type 9mm rounds. I would just sell it and buy another but I dont think anybodys going to want it. Any idea how I might maybe sell this to someone over seas or anything? any help would be appreciated.
Thanks-
Scott

Hi,

Are you sure it isn't a 9mm Luger chamber?

Lots of gun parts are made in Italy, for one, all of the Mec-Gar magazines.

If the barrel were for Italian civilian usage, it surely wouldn't say "Made in Italy" in English on it. It would, however, most likely say 9x21 on it.

You probably need to stop by your local Gunsmith and have the chambering positively identified.

If it is a 9x21, I'd not be in a great hurry to sell it, as this would be quite a rarely here in he U.S.

If it is a 9x21 and you don't handload, you can easily have the barrel changed out to a 9x19 by one of or finer board members G.T. who specializes in such things.


Sieger

[Blasfimus]

when I chamber the 9x19 it can be pushed further in. if you push it all the way it gets very tight and cannot extract without a lot of effort pulling the toggle. I was scared of misfiring when trying to extract it and wouldnt wish to try it again. I stopped at the gun shop immediately after seeing that the barrel said made in italy because it seemed strange and they were not able to make heads or tails. I need to get my hands on a 9x21 to be 100% sure. If the 9x19 being stuck tight in the chamber is normal than I should be fine but if not I believe it is 9x21. I forgot to mention all the parts are missmatched and has repro grips so its more than likely not an original barrel. on the plus side most the parts are in really good condition.

[sheepherder]

Here's a 9x19 fully inserted in the chamber.

[Blasfimus]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Here's a 9x19 fully inserted in the chamber.

Thanks for the visual. Mine looks like that when all the way in but it requires prying out. the 9 slides right in and out of my p38 though

[Blasfimus]

the toggle wont go all the way flush either with the round in the chamber. Is this another bad sign? Im pretty sure its not 30 Luger the bullet fits perfect from the muzzle.

[Sergio Natali]

Strange, I live in Italy, and unfortunatly some of my lugers were transformed into 9x21 IMI, but they are all absolutely original barrels, so far I've never seen luger barrels "made in Italy", can you post some photos of it?

[alanint]

The toggle not going flush would speak against it being a 9x21, which would drop the round deeper into the chamber.
Have you checked the chamber for any imperfections or debris?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Blasfimus

... the barrel says "Made In Italy". everything is as It should be, But this barrel was made in italy FOR italian civilian type 9mm rounds.

From what I've read here from Sergio & other Italian members, there were no 'civilian type 9mm rounds' available to civilians, only to military & police...Maybe this has changed, but if it has, it is odd that the maker wouldn't put their name on it (Like Bohler does)...as well as 'Made In Italy'...

Maybe it was made for Numrich...

If it were me, I would run my 9mm Parabellum chamber reamer down the barrel and turn it by hand to clean up any burrs...then I would check the chamber depth/headspace again and adjust it accordingly...You can rent the reamers, do a Search here for the two companies that rent them...

...Two centavos worth...

[Karl]

Is the 9x19 shell you are testing the chamber with fired brass or new/sized brass? It is possible that a piece of fired brass from another pistol might fit tight as in your description.
KFS

[Blasfimus]

It is new brass I've tried multiple rounds and multiple brands. I'm pretty stumped here if it is not 9x21

[Blasfimus]

From what I can tell the barrel looks to be in excellent shape. I will post pictures later when I get the chance.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Blasfimus

It is new brass I've tried multiple rounds and multiple brands. I'm pretty stumped here if it is not 9x21

Your posts reminded me of a discussion with some of our European members some time back...Our ammunition and consequently our US chambers/reamers are dimensioned according to the standards established by SAAMI...European manufactures do not have to abide by these standards unless they intend to sell here in the USA...

A 'Made in Italy' barrel may not have the exact dimensions of a US-made/conformed barrel/chamber...It may be close, and may fire/chamber Italian or other ammunition just fine...But have slight differences from a US chamber...

An example of the differences between chamber dimensions can be found right here in the US...A .223 Remington chamber is not the same as a 5.56 NATO chamber, although the cartridges are exteriorally dimensioned the same...

Just a thought...I still think a chamber reamer to clean up the chamber is the way to go...And it's fairly cheap ($35 for the rental, IIRC)...

[Blasfimus]

If I team the barrel I may be destroying it without knowing for sure what it is. Most any if my gun knowledge is in histories and function. I have no tools for reloading or any means to modify. If someone could maybe send over one or two of .30 brass it would be very much appreciated!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Blasfimus

If I ream the barrel I may be destroying it without knowing for sure what it is.

A 9mm chambering reamer won't go in a 30 Luger barrel. It just won't. It might go in a 9mm Kurz [.380ACP] barrel, but that would be OK as the bore is still 9mm. I doubt that any barrel maker would make a 9mm Kurz barrel without labeling it as such, and that would be a real oddball caliber for a Luger.

If someone could maybe send over one or two of .30 brass it would be very much appreciated!

That won't tell you anything, as a 30 Luger cartridge will just fall in a 9mm chamber roughly as far as the forward end of the extractor groove. About 1/8" farther than a 9mm. If you are still unsure if it is 30 cal, do the pencil trick.

More pictures would be helpful. Any markings, plus side views, overhead, stripped, chamber if you can focus that small, etc.

[rhuff]

I agree that it sounds as though the chamber needs to be finish reamed. If the barrel was installed and never headspaced for the breachblock, the 9mm round will not go far enough into the chamber to allow the toggle train to fully close.

You might just want to talk to our GT on this forum, as he has the necessary tools and the know how to fix you up. You could just send him your upper and toggle train and that can go USPS because it is not considered a firearm(read cheap shipping). I have done this very thing when I needed some of GT's expertise. He got me running 100%. Just a thought.

[Blasfimus]

Originally Posted by rhuff

I agree that it sounds as though the chamber needs to be finish reamed. If the barrel was installed and never headspaced for the breachblock, the 9mm round will not go far enough into the chamber to allow the toggle train to fully close.

You might just want to talk to our GT on this forum, as he has the necessary tools and the know how to fix you up. You could just send him your upper and toggle train and that can go USPS because it is not considered a firearm(read cheap shipping). I have done this very thing when I needed some of GT's expertise. He got me running 100%. Just a thought.

I will do just that thank you!

[Blasfimus]

Alright so Ive come to the conclusion that I have to be very picky with my ammo. But if I ream the chamber, should that make it a bit more accessible to other ammo? or might it hurt it? I found the lip of the brass protruded slightly from the base of the bullet on all the other ammo I own, while on the winchester, it seemed much more flush in comparison. also one simple question. I find the toggle on my gun to be very hard to pull back. Is this a good thing?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Blasfimus

But if I ream the chamber, should that make it a bit more accessible to other ammo? or might it hurt it?

IF it is 9mm x 19 it won't hurt it. It would just 'clean it up'. You really need to inspect it closely. Does it have the 'sealing ring' that OEM Lugers had??? There's a pic of the 'sealing ring' (some call it a 'stepped chamber') here somewhere...That might cause some binding, especially if it had crud built up around it...

I haven't tried it, but running a SAAMI-spec 9x19 reamer in a 'stepped chamber' would probably cut the step out...

Not a big deal (at least to shooters), but might be something to a collector...

Here's the pic of a 'stepped chamber'...



What brand ammunition were you having problems with??? Maybe if one of us had it, we could give a better opinion...

[John Sabato]

Okay... the time has passed for guessing...we are talking about SHOOTING this gun so it's time for the "big guns."

Do a casting of the chamber, then get a good digital caliper and measure the critical points of the casting to determine the case dimensions and compare it to the SAAMI standards to find out the correct caliber...