Just got another Chinese broomhandle

grayparatrooper · 01-29-2014, 03:53 PM

Well I picked up another broom today having never seen this model before I now own 2

. I got the one on the left today and the red 9 last year. They are slightly different the one has a big ring hammer the other small, one is milled above the trigger one not and the triggers are slightly different. The markings are the same the mags fit tighter in the big ring and in typical Chinese qc the mags dont fit they must be custom to each gun. The different mags will go into the magwell but are supertight and I won't force them in. Any info you can prove on what I've got maybe some values? I paid 575 for the gun couple weeks ago and 800 last year for the other. I have the orig crappy cardboard box for one and both the styrofoam insert they came in.

sheepherder · 01-29-2014, 04:47 PM

Cool pair!!!

If they were for sale around here, they'd surely go for $1200 - $1500 each...Maybe more...Being Chinese wouldn't matter...

Do either have a holster/stock???

Arizona Slim · 01-29-2014, 05:01 PM

I agree with sheepherder, that is a great looking pair and the price you paid sounds like you did very well, congratulations.

Lon

318is_Parabellum · 01-29-2014, 05:47 PM

Nice! The small ring Chinese one you have with the repro 'red 9' grips is exactly like the one I have (mine doesn't have the same grips, of course). I have a stock for it. My rig is still at my gunsmith's shop, though.

Are your magazines numbered? Mine are.

ETA: Price-wise you did very well, these Chinese mod 712 "semi-auto Schnellfeuer" pistols go for $1k and up, everywhere I've seen 'em!

grayparatrooper · 01-29-2014, 06:08 PM

I added the grips as I thought they look cool had to do a little Dremel work to make them fit. They didn't come with stocks but i did buy one off ebay. The mags are numbered but aren't interchangeable sadly. I took the newest one shooting last weekend it functioned 100%. I just saw a gb auction end at $1700 it looked the same as the one I just got minus a fancy case it also had no Chinese lettering.

What is yours at the smith for?

318is_Parabellum · 01-29-2014, 06:31 PM

Some fool tried to illegally modify it

, so he's making sure it functions properly (and thus keeping "the Man" off my back!), and fitting the stock to the gun.

He has my "Red 9" for stock fitment, as well. I really look forward to getting them back at the same time. That is a range day I'm really looking forward to, you can bet!!

grayparatrooper · 01-30-2014, 10:23 AM

Well hopefully it's all in good shape I need to order another stock for my newer one. The range officer at the gun range thought it was the coolest thing he had seen so I let him shoot a mag and he said while it was weird he liked it lol.

alvin · 01-30-2014, 07:58 PM

It's illegal to attach stock to these two guns without registration. For unknown reason, .45ACP Shansei assembled in 1980s were imported as C&R, but these so called "M714" assembled in the same period were not imported as C&R. They are not exempted. If attaching a stock, it become a Short Barrel Rifle, you have to register it with BATF before doing that.

318is_Parabellum · 01-30-2014, 08:47 PM

I do believe the one with the repro "red 9" grips was made in the 1930's in China, and is specifically listed as exempt.

The other likely wouldn't be, especially if the frame was made in the 80's. If it were one of the Fed Ordnance produced guns, it certainly wouldn't be. It does have the bow & arrow within a gear marking indicating ownership/acceptance by the Nationalist Chinese Army...which used this mark in the early to mid 1930's, insofar as I am aware.

My gunsmith is an 07 SOT, and deals in NFA items. It's his business to know such things...and he's been in business a long time. I'm confident he wouldn't make and sell me an 'illegal SBR'. There's a lot of misinformation and conflicting information about such weapons floating around out there. The current understanding is that so long as the pistol is in it's original configuration, and was originally designed to accept a shoulder stock, the stock can either be original or an accurate reproduction.

Some states may have their own rules concerning such things, but fortunately I live in WV and need not worry about such foolishness.

alvin · 01-30-2014, 09:44 PM

Sorry that I have to say no, so viewers were not mis-informed due to this is rule related. Both are mounted on newly made grip frames. The rule of this country counts grip frame as pistol, so having a 1930 made Schnellfeuer lock frame does not change the gun's status.

Those newly assembled .45 ACP Shansei were exempted. Just a lucky issue. Unfortunately, these two are not exempted.

The reason Chinese making those frames -- so they could export those surplus Schnellfeuers out. There were tens of thousands of those there. Not many countries in this world import "outdated guns", U.S. was the biggest customer. Unfortunately, Schnellfeuers was a controlled weapon in the U.S. which could not be imported "as is" for public sale. To squeeze $$ out of those surplus guns (otherwise would be dumped into blast furnace) required some work. That's the background of these "M714".

sheepherder · 01-30-2014, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

The rule of this country counts grip frames as pistol...

Ah, but Mauser grip frames are not serialized; the barrel extension is.

318is_Parabellum · 01-30-2014, 10:05 PM

I hate to seem argumentative about this particular point, but there seem to be an awful lot of these so-called 'illegal SBRs' on Gunbroker, et. al., even as we speak.

This particular issue strikes me as one of those "grey areas" much like 922(r), which is typically ignored, (except in the most egregious cases) especially in the case of these weapons.

If, like you say, the .45 ACP versions (rare, rich man's toys that they are) were exempted and these weren't, then we have yet another example of ATF not bothering to follow their own contradictory and unconstitutional "regulations", made from whole cloth, altered at whim, and selectively enforced.

Having said that, I'll have to go back and find the letter from tech branch I clearly remember reading (it might have been in the C&R regs), that specifically mentioned these semi-auto Chinese broomhandles as being exempt. All this begs the question: if these broomhandle pistols weren't exempt, why were they imported with stock slots, when the Fed Ordnance guns of the same type were manufactured without stock slots?

That being said, I would worry far less about having a stocked version of one of these Chinese broomhandles than say, an UZI carbine with a sawed-off barrel. Worlds apart.

alvin · 01-30-2014, 10:07 PM

Mauser grip frames are numbered, from beginning to the end. But on 1930 and Schnellfeuer, it's numbered inside.... so it creates a weird situation -- supposedly, according to the rule, the number on the grip frame should be recorded in the "bound book". However,,,, I don't know how many people record that partial s/n on 1930

On mismatched 1930, I bet most people would still record the full s/n on the barrel.

For those .45ACP, most of them are assembled in 1980s. Not sure why people paying big bucks on them....Probably most of .45 were advertised as "only 8000 made, most destroyed" etc. If everyone says so, it must be so. But, if viewers track it a little bit -- they probably would find this "super rare variation" appears almost every week on gunbroker.com. Back a few years ago, it's available at a few hundred dollars.

318is_Parabellum · 01-30-2014, 10:31 PM

*Everything* was cheaper "a few years ago". Sure wish I could've bought all those cheap MP 40 and MG 42 parts kits I remember being advertised in the Shotgun News 10 years ago, but I was a 'starving grad student'!

Darn Baby Boomers, those guys got to have all the fun. Guys like myself (I'm 41!), and younger are left with the scraps.

Not "hating", just wish I could've been buying import-marked lugers 10 years ago before the prices went nuts. Of course, GI 1911/1911A1 prices have skyrocketed during the same timeframe. Let's not even mention what NFA firearm (machine gun) prices have done in the last 20 years... AR-15 type weapons are the only firearm types that I see as being in "the best of times" right now. I'm kinda bummed that I missed out on "the golden age" of surplus firearms, which interest me far more than do M-4 type AR-15's loaded with gizmos. I already built my Vietnam-era M16A1 clone, and my M16A2 clone like I carried when I was in the Army. But I digress....

alvin · 01-30-2014, 10:51 PM

In recent years, the gun price does not go up much... or even lowered than a few years ago. That's actually good for collectors because "investors" will not put their surplus $$ into guns (if not as risky as stock market, at least not enough profit to attract them in the gun market, and liquidity is poor, not good from investment point of view), and collectors could lower the cost. It's not an investment, it's a hobby.

318is_Parabellum · 01-30-2014, 11:25 PM

Shh, don't say that within earshot of the wife!!!

If I manage to hang on to what I've got, my daughter (at least), and hopefully my future grandchildren will be very happy, indeed!

grayparatrooper · 01-30-2014, 11:45 PM

I have heard both sides of the stock deal some yes some say no it's all pretty convoluted imo. I chalk it up as do what feels best for you kinna like 922 follow to the t if you want but no one is really caring or even understands it.

alvin · 01-31-2014, 06:46 AM

Not only this rule, all rules are like this -- it's up to each person to decide following it or not. But I would suggest following it.

sheepherder · 01-31-2014, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Mauser grip frames are numbered, from beginning to the end. But on 1930 and Schnellfeuer, it's numbered inside...

But it's not the full serial; only the last 4...

alvin · 01-31-2014, 07:16 PM

That's the way it is. Mauser was a circle, some features on early conehammer was re-implemented on 1930 -- unnumbered hammer and hidden lock frame number. Also, the interior panel milling on the grip frame was cancelled on 1930 if I remembered right. Probably they gave up putting too much effort on those -- the muzzle of very very late 1930's was blued, not in white. All other variations had white muzzle. Sorry for off-topic.

01-29-2014, 03:53 PM	#1
grayparatrooper User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just got another Chinese broomhandle Well I picked up another broom today having never seen this model before I now own 2 . I got the one on the left today and the red 9 last year. They are slightly different the one has a big ring hammer the other small, one is milled above the trigger one not and the triggers are slightly different. The markings are the same the mags fit tighter in the big ring and in typical Chinese qc the mags dont fit they must be custom to each gun. The different mags will go into the magwell but are supertight and I won't force them in. Any info you can prove on what I've got maybe some values? I paid 575 for the gun couple weeks ago and 800 last year for the other. I have the orig crappy cardboard box for one and both the styrofoam insert they came in. Last edited by grayparatrooper; 01-29-2014 at 06:03 PM.

01-29-2014, 04:47 PM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Cool pair!!! If they were for sale around here, they'd surely go for $1200 - $1500 each...Maybe more...Being Chinese wouldn't matter... Do either have a holster/stock??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-30-2014, 08:47 PM	#9
318is_Parabellum User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 130 Thanks: 80 Thanked 75 Times in 31 Posts	I do believe the one with the repro "red 9" grips was made in the 1930's in China, and is specifically listed as exempt. The other likely wouldn't be, especially if the frame was made in the 80's. If it were one of the Fed Ordnance produced guns, it certainly wouldn't be. It does have the bow & arrow within a gear marking indicating ownership/acceptance by the Nationalist Chinese Army...which used this mark in the early to mid 1930's, insofar as I am aware. My gunsmith is an 07 SOT, and deals in NFA items. It's his business to know such things...and he's been in business a long time. I'm confident he wouldn't make and sell me an 'illegal SBR'. There's a lot of misinformation and conflicting information about such weapons floating around out there. The current understanding is that so long as the pistol is in it's original configuration, and was originally designed to accept a shoulder stock, the stock can either be original or an accurate reproduction. Some states may have their own rules concerning such things, but fortunately I live in WV and need not worry about such foolishness. Last edited by 318is_Parabellum; 01-30-2014 at 09:45 PM.

01-29-2014, 05:01 PM	#3
Arizona Slim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 706 Thanks: 1,026 Thanked 409 Times in 225 Posts	I agree with sheepherder, that is a great looking pair and the price you paid sounds like you did very well, congratulations. Lon

01-29-2014, 05:47 PM	#4
318is_Parabellum User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 130 Thanks: 80 Thanked 75 Times in 31 Posts	Nice! The small ring Chinese one you have with the repro 'red 9' grips is exactly like the one I have (mine doesn't have the same grips, of course). I have a stock for it. My rig is still at my gunsmith's shop, though. Are your magazines numbered? Mine are. ETA: Price-wise you did very well, these Chinese mod 712 "semi-auto Schnellfeuer" pistols go for $1k and up, everywhere I've seen 'em!

01-29-2014, 06:08 PM	#5
grayparatrooper User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I added the grips as I thought they look cool had to do a little Dremel work to make them fit. They didn't come with stocks but i did buy one off ebay. The mags are numbered but aren't interchangeable sadly. I took the newest one shooting last weekend it functioned 100%. I just saw a gb auction end at $1700 it looked the same as the one I just got minus a fancy case it also had no Chinese lettering. What is yours at the smith for?

01-29-2014, 06:31 PM	#6
318is_Parabellum User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 130 Thanks: 80 Thanked 75 Times in 31 Posts	Some fool tried to illegally modify it , so he's making sure it functions properly (and thus keeping "the Man" off my back!), and fitting the stock to the gun. He has my "Red 9" for stock fitment, as well. I really look forward to getting them back at the same time. That is a range day I'm really looking forward to, you can bet!!

01-30-2014, 10:23 AM	#7
grayparatrooper User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well hopefully it's all in good shape I need to order another stock for my newer one. The range officer at the gun range thought it was the coolest thing he had seen so I let him shoot a mag and he said while it was weird he liked it lol.

01-30-2014, 07:58 PM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's illegal to attach stock to these two guns without registration. For unknown reason, .45ACP Shansei assembled in 1980s were imported as C&R, but these so called "M714" assembled in the same period were not imported as C&R. They are not exempted. If attaching a stock, it become a Short Barrel Rifle, you have to register it with BATF before doing that.

01-30-2014, 09:44 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Sorry that I have to say no, so viewers were not mis-informed due to this is rule related. Both are mounted on newly made grip frames. The rule of this country counts grip frame as pistol, so having a 1930 made Schnellfeuer lock frame does not change the gun's status. Those newly assembled .45 ACP Shansei were exempted. Just a lucky issue. Unfortunately, these two are not exempted. The reason Chinese making those frames -- so they could export those surplus Schnellfeuers out. There were tens of thousands of those there. Not many countries in this world import "outdated guns", U.S. was the biggest customer. Unfortunately, Schnellfeuers was a controlled weapon in the U.S. which could not be imported "as is" for public sale. To squeeze $$ out of those surplus guns (otherwise would be dumped into blast furnace) required some work. That's the background of these "M714".

01-30-2014, 10:05 PM	#12
318is_Parabellum User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 130 Thanks: 80 Thanked 75 Times in 31 Posts	I hate to seem argumentative about this particular point, but there seem to be an awful lot of these so-called 'illegal SBRs' on Gunbroker, et. al., even as we speak. This particular issue strikes me as one of those "grey areas" much like 922(r), which is typically ignored, (except in the most egregious cases) especially in the case of these weapons. If, like you say, the .45 ACP versions (rare, rich man's toys that they are) were exempted and these weren't, then we have yet another example of ATF not bothering to follow their own contradictory and unconstitutional "regulations", made from whole cloth, altered at whim, and selectively enforced. Having said that, I'll have to go back and find the letter from tech branch I clearly remember reading (it might have been in the C&R regs), that specifically mentioned these semi-auto Chinese broomhandles as being exempt. All this begs the question: if these broomhandle pistols weren't exempt, why were they imported with stock slots, when the Fed Ordnance guns of the same type were manufactured without stock slots? That being said, I would worry far less about having a stocked version of one of these Chinese broomhandles than say, an UZI carbine with a sawed-off barrel. Worlds apart.

01-30-2014, 10:07 PM	#13
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Mauser grip frames are numbered, from beginning to the end. But on 1930 and Schnellfeuer, it's numbered inside.... so it creates a weird situation -- supposedly, according to the rule, the number on the grip frame should be recorded in the "bound book". However,,,, I don't know how many people record that partial s/n on 1930 On mismatched 1930, I bet most people would still record the full s/n on the barrel. For those .45ACP, most of them are assembled in 1980s. Not sure why people paying big bucks on them....Probably most of .45 were advertised as "only 8000 made, most destroyed" etc. If everyone says so, it must be so. But, if viewers track it a little bit -- they probably would find this "super rare variation" appears almost every week on gunbroker.com. Back a few years ago, it's available at a few hundred dollars.

01-30-2014, 10:31 PM	#14
318is_Parabellum User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 130 Thanks: 80 Thanked 75 Times in 31 Posts	Everything was cheaper "a few years ago". Sure wish I could've bought all those cheap MP 40 and MG 42 parts kits I remember being advertised in the Shotgun News 10 years ago, but I was a 'starving grad student'! Darn Baby Boomers, those guys got to have all the fun. Guys like myself (I'm 41!), and younger are left with the scraps. Not "hating", just wish I could've been buying import-marked lugers 10 years ago before the prices went nuts. Of course, GI 1911/1911A1 prices have skyrocketed during the same timeframe. Let's not even mention what NFA firearm (machine gun) prices have done in the last 20 years... AR-15 type weapons are the only firearm types that I see as being in "the best of times" right now. I'm kinda bummed that I missed out on "the golden age" of surplus firearms, which interest me far more than do M-4 type AR-15's loaded with gizmos. I already built my Vietnam-era M16A1 clone, and my M16A2 clone like I carried when I was in the Army. But I digress....

01-30-2014, 10:51 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	In recent years, the gun price does not go up much... or even lowered than a few years ago. That's actually good for collectors because "investors" will not put their surplus $$ into guns (if not as risky as stock market, at least not enough profit to attract them in the gun market, and liquidity is poor, not good from investment point of view), and collectors could lower the cost. It's not an investment, it's a hobby.

01-30-2014, 11:25 PM	#16
318is_Parabellum User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 130 Thanks: 80 Thanked 75 Times in 31 Posts	Shh, don't say that within earshot of the wife!!! If I manage to hang on to what I've got, my daughter (at least), and hopefully my future grandchildren will be very happy, indeed!

01-30-2014, 11:45 PM	#17
grayparatrooper User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have heard both sides of the stock deal some yes some say no it's all pretty convoluted imo. I chalk it up as do what feels best for you kinna like 922 follow to the t if you want but no one is really caring or even understands it.

01-31-2014, 06:46 AM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Not only this rule, all rules are like this -- it's up to each person to decide following it or not. But I would suggest following it.

01-31-2014, 07:16 PM	#20
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	That's the way it is. Mauser was a circle, some features on early conehammer was re-implemented on 1930 -- unnumbered hammer and hidden lock frame number. Also, the interior panel milling on the grip frame was cancelled on 1930 if I remembered right. Probably they gave up putting too much effort on those -- the muzzle of very very late 1930's was blued, not in white. All other variations had white muzzle. Sorry for off-topic.