Toggle Stuck Open?

[Duckdogz]

I was recently shooting my 1917 P-08 Luger, after emptying & inserting a new magazine the action would not close to chamber a round. The actions seems to be stuck open and so I can't disassemble it to see if anything is broken. Has anyone ever had this problem or know of any solutions? I've checked with a couple of gunsmiths, but so far haven't found anyone who works on Lugers.

[Vlim]

Looks like your holdopen is stuck. It is an L-shaped piece of metal that lies in a recess in the frame. It is kept in place by a small leaf spring. The magazine button pushes it upwards after the last shot, so that the breech block catches behind it and remains open.

You may want to remove the right grip, so you can 'feel around' in that area. If you do a forum search on 'hold open', you will know where to look.

[Lugerdoc]

DD. you can normally release a HO with a broken or missing spring (available @$25 postpaid) by removing your mag, hold toggle in place and press down on the HO (to right & forward of the breech block) from the top, without removing grip. TH

[lugerholsterrepair]

Yes..all true..Look at the right of where the magazine lips/well are and you can see a pretty good run of the hold open and spring. You may be able to see a broken part from there. Either way Tom is correct. Likely what's holding open your bolt is this hold open. Take a thin wooden stick..mayby a popsicle stick or a tongue depressor and push down there. This should release your bolt!
Like Tom indicates..be careful..hold onto the toggles best you can cause when released the toggle/bolt is coming atcha!The stick in the chamber area will help some but it's under considerable pressure.
Let us know how it turns out!

[Duckdogz]

First off, I would like to thank you all for the help. I have located the holdopen it appears to be all together (nothing obvious is broken). The holdopen spring pin is still in place and it is all flush against the frame. I've carefully tried pushing it down (towards where the magazine is inserted) on the holdopen where the spring pin connects. It doesn't want to move very far, it easily goes about 1/32 of an inch and spring right back. I enjoy taking this gun apart to clean it, but confess I don't know that much about Lugers. Do I need to actually use some force and push the holdopen down a ways?

[lugerholsterrepair]

No..No actual force is necessary BUT you need to move as far towards the rear of the pistol as the open bolt will allow you.. AWAY from the pivot pin. The pivot pin is just that. There is a portion of the holdopen on either side. Spring to the left and the actual part that we believe is holding open your bolt on the right..sort of UNDER the bolt. So move as far to the right/rear as you can and push there. Possible but not likely there is some crud under the hold open lever in it's well...this lever holding back your bolt is a knife edged sear type of thing. It SHOULD release relatively soon upon pushing down in the right place. To the rear on the right.

The pivot pin allows the flat spring to move the L shaped portion of the hold open to drop into it's well and keep it there by spring pressure. The magazine follower button, powered by the magazine spring, upon the last cartridge being stripped out of the magazine, pushes up on the hold open overcoming the flat spring of the holdopen and allows the knife edge of the holdopen to catch the notch in the underside of the bolt when the bolt returns rearward as this afformentioned last cartridge is fired and subsequently extracted. The bolt, blown to the rear, the holdopen raises due to magazine spring pressure and as the bolt tries to move forward, knife edge meets slot, the bolt is stopped in it's tracks.

Pretty simple. Next time you have your Luger apart look at the bottom of the bolt..all will be revealed!

One other thing before we get too far along..inserting a new magazine the action would not close to chamber a round. The actions seems to be stuck open

With NO magazine in the pistol have you tried pulling back on the toggles to allow the holdopen to disengage? On a Luger pistol with no problems this would allow the flat spring to put enough pressure on the L shaped knife edged part to drop into it's well in the frame and release the bolt from captivity, letting the bolt move forward.

[Duckdogz]

Well I tried pushing the holdopen back as far as it would go, but nothing happened. The action is simply stuck open. I've also tried different magazines as well at pulling back the toggle with no magazine. When I pull the toggle back and release, it is like it is hitting something solid. I'm afraid it could be something bigger than a holdopen spring. Guess I'll keep checking with gunsmiths until I find one who works on Lugers. Thanks again, I really do appreciate you taking the time to help me. I probably just shoot this old gun too much, but when they are working like they should there is no gun more fun to shoot than a Luger.

[alanint]

With the toggle stuck open, you should be able to rotate the takedown lever, remove the sideplate and take the entire upper receiver off the pistol's frame. Once you do that, the problem should become obvious.
If you can't remove the upper from the lower, I would suspect that the toggle link to the mainspring stirrup is somehow involved. perhaps assembled incorrectly.

Can you post photos of what is going on?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Doug, I tried that with my bench fitting pistol and it can't be done..locked up tight in the hold open position.

"Well I tried pushing the holdopen back as far as it would go" WRONG! You need to push DOWN not BACK!

When I pull the toggle back and release, it is like it is hitting something solid. YES! The holdopen!

I'm afraid it could be something bigger than a holdopen spring. The holdopen spring wants the same thing you do..to return the hold open sear into it's well in the frame!

Most people do not ever take out the holdopen when general cleaning and on a pistol that is shot a lot it could have some junk in the frame well. Dried grease, spent powder or who knows what.

Luke, One last thing..take your magazines into another room away from the pistol. This problem does fix not require a magazine..the insertion of one at any time does NOT help! It only pushes up on the holdopen! You want to push down!

[Ron Wood]

If the hold open is stuck in the "up" position, you can't disassemble the gun. The breech block will not move forward past the holdopen. Also, the holdopen should not be pushed back, it needs to be pushed down.

Aw shucks, Jerry beat me again.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Luke..OK I just performed this on my bench pistol with ease. On the right side just BELOW the angular ejector that juts out there is a small ledge. About 1/4 inch below the ejector..there is a slot in front of this ledge where the holdopen narrows down for the flat spring. Go to the right of this slot to the ledge RIGHT under the ejector..take a small dowell or almost any tool..a nut pick..anything small enough and push down on this ledge. It's right on front of the bolt face..It immediately released my bolt.

[ithacaartist]

Not sure if this will further clarify or confuse, but... I think what everyone is describing is that the tension in the action--from the recoil spring--should be removed while the holdopen is being pressed down, at its rear-- necessary because with the tension there, and the breech block actually being pressed against the holdopen in its blocking, raised position, no doubt the holdopen will not be shifted easily. And when it does, your flesh better not be in between the front of the breech block and the breech, as it will snap shut with a vengeance! This is done by pulling the toggle knobs back and holding them back while the holdopen is manipulated. This may require a third hand, one to hold the pistol, one to hold the toggle knobs back, and one to press the holdopen. It can be done with two, but putting the pistol into a padded vise will make it a lot easier.

I also think Ron is correct when he says the upper won't come off with the toggle knobs up--the recoil spring connection to the rear toggle link will be under tension and the connector from the rear toggle won't flop free, out of the way of the upper's removal.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Luke..OK I just performed this on my bench pistol with ease.