Help valuing a Martz Luger

Bluznvice · 09-07-2013, 04:21 AM

Since this is my first post, I'll apologize up front for any inevitable mistakes I make in this post.

I'd appreciate any help you all could provide in helping me determine the value of this luger. Somewhat of a long story here, so bear with me please...

My dad became acquainted with John Martz in the early '70's. They were both in the military and worked in the same area. Dad was an avid collector and sometimes shooter of many types of guns, but John got him interested in lugers. As a side note, I was very sad to hear that John just passed away. I was hoping to get in touch with him about this one. Anyway, in the mid-'70's dad ended up buying at least 3 lugers from John that I know of. One he sold, another was stolen, and I have the last one.

From the notes and receipt I have for this gun, it appears that dad wanted John to build him a nice shooter. He ordered it in December '76 and John finished it in February '77. John described it as a "Martz Custom Shooter Luger". The receipt indicates:

- Basic pistol, 41-byf-#411
- Custom Luger 6" - 9mm barrel
- New grips
- Satin white refinishing
- Trigger work (easy pull, no free play)
- Custom wide front sight
- Custom wide square rear sight notch
- Reform & rechecker grips
- 1 box new Winchester full metal case 9mm (John specified to use this ammunition)

Apparently, dad wasn't satisfied with the magazine because a couple months later there's a receipt to "find mag to match conformation of handle - polish button - re-test fire".

So, there it is. I'm not sure if dad ever fired it. It looks mint, and appears to have the old grease still in the barrel. That wouldn't surprise me. Sometimes he never got around to shooting everything he collected. I'm kind of afraid to look around for the box of Win ammo since I probably shot it up a long time ago, but I suppose I should.

The reason I'd like to know the value is because I'm a shooter and can't stand having safe queens. This gun does have some sentimental value to me, but not enough to not shoot it. However, if somehow it has more value in it's present condition to a collector, well...you know. Let's see if I can get the pictures attached.

alvin · 09-07-2013, 08:17 AM

Don't know. But genuine Martz Luger has book value, so there must be some special collector interest on it, but you need to prove it's a genuine Martz Luger, just by words is not enough (of course, words may be enough, depends on buyer).

Assume it's genuine Martz Luger, it should be lower than Interarms Mauser. Postwar vs postwar, Mauser vs Martz, factory new vs restored parts, both stopped production,,,, I did not see any reason Martz should go above Interarms. The only advantage on Martz is the much smaller volume, but its interest party is also much smaller. That's my opinion.

===

2nd thought. For dedicated Martz collector, above mentioned "vs" does not count. What's really important will be the first point -- it must be a genuine Martz. Somehow, you have to offer proof.

DavidJayUden · 09-07-2013, 08:55 AM

That is one nice gun, and if it walked in my door I'd be all over it. To me it seems that it should be priced well over the Interarms guns, but that is just emotion speaking, not experience. The Martz name should bring added value to the package, and I'd hope to get around $2k for it. But please understand that I have no facts or history to back that figure up. A very nice shooter to be sure, one that has a lot of build-time and craftsmanship into it.
dju

cirelaw · 09-07-2013, 09:05 AM

There was a prior discussion on Jan's site years ago! http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...hn-Marz-Lugers

Lugerdoc · 09-07-2013, 09:36 AM

As stated above, your early 9mm Martz shooter is a bit difficult to value, as not listed in the current Blue Book, like his BABY models and those in calibers other than 9mm. Also yours lack this later "JVM" toggle marking and his patented Martz Safety toggle Release (MSTR) marking, that I have on my later Martz super shooter. My 6"x 9mm also has the orig 2 position ajustable rear sight, which John traded to me over 30 years ago for parts. At the time he was asking $1500 for my version, which would be around $3,000 in todays dollars and since then, I've added a repro Navy stock, tools, spare mag and encased them in a leather covered case, which should add about $500 to the value. As I recall years ago, John would tune a customer's luger and polish it in the $500 range, so adding in $300 for the value of a shooter then, it has probably doubled in value since, so I say about a $1600 shooter today. TH

cirelaw · 09-07-2013, 09:43 AM

Where does Mike Krause fit in?http://www.krausewerk.com/45luger.html

Edward Tinker · 09-07-2013, 09:54 AM

I think if your receipt says Matrz /and or any markings you could get up to $2,000 for it. Being a six inch makes it fun gun, but not being a 'carbine' or in a special caliber lowers the value in my mind.

I would like a Martz, but would want a carbine (any caliber) or a 45 acp.

Bluznvice · 09-07-2013, 01:48 PM

Thank you all for the info. That's about what I figured. I do have the original receipts listing the serial number, etc. and price lists from Martz , just didn't take a picture of them.

Lugerdoc, you're correct. There isn't any "JVM" stamp. I'm wondering if 1976 was before he started doing that. He included a description page of the MSTR modification with the pistol, but it's not applied to the gun. The only reason I can think dad didn't have it applied was keeping the cost down. He lists the mod at $116.50 plus 6% CA tax. He probably also wanted to see how it functioned before adding the MSTR.

Well, looks like I've got a nice shooter to play with and not worry about hurting the value. I'll keep it pristine and maybe sell/trade it someday. Actually, I'm kinda excited to get it out the range and see how it shoots. I can definitely see why there is still so much interest in Lugers because it certainly is a beautiful piece of work.

Oh...follow up question...is there any value in the magazine? I suspect only to the owner of the matching serial numbered gun if one exists. Serial number is 8159. My Jones Luger Variations doesn't list the markings. Sorry about the picture quality.

Ron Wood · 09-07-2013, 03:07 PM

Is there any chance there is a JVM mark inside the side plate or on the frame under the side plate? John usually marked his guns somewhere, even on the early pieces.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-07-2013, 03:28 PM

Curt, Oh...follow up question...is there any value in the magazine? I suspect only to the owner of the matching serial numbered gun if one exists. Serial number is 8159.

Yes..there is collector interest in these mags. I suspect this one is in the $100-150 range.

If this beautiful pistol were mine I would acquire a couple of MecGar mags for shooting. Although I am sure the one you have would work fine.

Personally..if this came down to me from my Father with the paperwork and provenance you have with it..I would shoot it till the day I died. BUT.. I understand some people are shooters and some not. I also wouldn't accept a penny less than $2000, John will not be making any more of these and any fine Navy style length shooter pistol made by John Martz should easily bring that on the open market. Anyway thanks for showing it!

Bluznvice · 09-07-2013, 04:10 PM

John, I've thought about that too but have been reluctant to start disassembly. Somehow I have a bad knack for fubar'ing things when I start taking them apart. But now that I know it's basically shooter value, I will. Take it apart I mean...not fubar it

And Jerry, I kind of agree with you. But like my dad, sometimes I'm sentimental and sometimes I ain't. He certainly wasn't sentimental about passing down the 90% all matching 41 byf with holster which he sold for $700! But, I'm sure my own sons would gnash their teeth if I got rid of this one, and it IS kinda nice owning a piece of history.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-07-2013, 05:03 PM

Curt, sometimes I'm sentimental and sometimes I ain't.I understand..sometimes you need 2 grand sometimes you don't!
Remember though..once it's sold and the 2K spent..It's gone. If you don't need the $$ hang onto it. John Martz just passed and might be a little later until his guns go up in value...

G.T. · 09-07-2013, 08:03 PM

I had the privilege of working with, and on, JVM's creations for over 30+ years... His Lugers span all disciplines, collecting, shooting, and art..... I will say this.. The gun pictured looks like his classic satin white with polished straw small parts.. Very distinctive and a basic finish for all his creations whether left, "In the white" or "rust blued"... The grips are also characteristic of his early work... finely checkered, and highly figured French Walnut.. Nice gun... 2K would be too little... it will increase in value over time... There will be no more...Best to you, til...lat'r....GT

Bluznvice · 09-08-2013, 04:24 AM

Thanks GT and Rick. I really kick myself for not getting out to see John with this gun in the last couple of years. Kept meaning to. He only lived about 30 minutes away. Another lesson learned...never put off today what you won't be able to do tomorrow.

Greg B. · 09-11-2013, 12:12 PM

This gun sounds more like a custom Luger to me rather than a shooter. It has a pedigree, decent sights and a decent trigger. I suspect Winchester ammunition was recomended because the sights were set up to shoot this accurately. I don't know a lot about Lugers but it sounds like your dad wanted a good acurate pistol and that is what he got.

09-07-2013, 04:21 AM	#1
Bluznvice New User Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Help valuing a Martz Luger Since this is my first post, I'll apologize up front for any inevitable mistakes I make in this post. I'd appreciate any help you all could provide in helping me determine the value of this luger. Somewhat of a long story here, so bear with me please... My dad became acquainted with John Martz in the early '70's. They were both in the military and worked in the same area. Dad was an avid collector and sometimes shooter of many types of guns, but John got him interested in lugers. As a side note, I was very sad to hear that John just passed away. I was hoping to get in touch with him about this one. Anyway, in the mid-'70's dad ended up buying at least 3 lugers from John that I know of. One he sold, another was stolen, and I have the last one. From the notes and receipt I have for this gun, it appears that dad wanted John to build him a nice shooter. He ordered it in December '76 and John finished it in February '77. John described it as a "Martz Custom Shooter Luger". The receipt indicates: - Basic pistol, 41-byf-#411 - Custom Luger 6" - 9mm barrel - New grips - Satin white refinishing - Trigger work (easy pull, no free play) - Custom wide front sight - Custom wide square rear sight notch - Reform & rechecker grips - 1 box new Winchester full metal case 9mm (John specified to use this ammunition) Apparently, dad wasn't satisfied with the magazine because a couple months later there's a receipt to "find mag to match conformation of handle - polish button - re-test fire". So, there it is. I'm not sure if dad ever fired it. It looks mint, and appears to have the old grease still in the barrel. That wouldn't surprise me. Sometimes he never got around to shooting everything he collected. I'm kind of afraid to look around for the box of Win ammo since I probably shot it up a long time ago, but I suppose I should. The reason I'd like to know the value is because I'm a shooter and can't stand having safe queens. This gun does have some sentimental value to me, but not enough to not shoot it. However, if somehow it has more value in it's present condition to a collector, well...you know. Let's see if I can get the pictures attached. Attached Thumbnails

09-07-2013, 09:36 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	As stated above, your early 9mm Martz shooter is a bit difficult to value, as not listed in the current Blue Book, like his BABY models and those in calibers other than 9mm. Also yours lack this later "JVM" toggle marking and his patented Martz Safety toggle Release (MSTR) marking, that I have on my later Martz super shooter. My 6"x 9mm also has the orig 2 position ajustable rear sight, which John traded to me over 30 years ago for parts. At the time he was asking $1500 for my version, which would be around $3,000 in todays dollars and since then, I've added a repro Navy stock, tools, spare mag and encased them in a leather covered case, which should add about $500 to the value. As I recall years ago, John would tune a customer's luger and polish it in the $500 range, so adding in $300 for the value of a shooter then, it has probably doubled in value since, so I say about a $1600 shooter today. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-07-2013, 09:54 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I think if your receipt says Matrz /and or any markings you could get up to $2,000 for it. Being a six inch makes it fun gun, but not being a 'carbine' or in a special caliber lowers the value in my mind. I would like a Martz, but would want a carbine (any caliber) or a 45 acp. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-07-2013, 01:48 PM	#8
Bluznvice New User Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you all for the info. That's about what I figured. I do have the original receipts listing the serial number, etc. and price lists from Martz , just didn't take a picture of them. Lugerdoc, you're correct. There isn't any "JVM" stamp. I'm wondering if 1976 was before he started doing that. He included a description page of the MSTR modification with the pistol, but it's not applied to the gun. The only reason I can think dad didn't have it applied was keeping the cost down. He lists the mod at $116.50 plus 6% CA tax. He probably also wanted to see how it functioned before adding the MSTR. Well, looks like I've got a nice shooter to play with and not worry about hurting the value. I'll keep it pristine and maybe sell/trade it someday. Actually, I'm kinda excited to get it out the range and see how it shoots. I can definitely see why there is still so much interest in Lugers because it certainly is a beautiful piece of work. Oh...follow up question...is there any value in the magazine? I suspect only to the owner of the matching serial numbered gun if one exists. Serial number is 8159. My Jones Luger Variations doesn't list the markings. Sorry about the picture quality. Attached Thumbnails

09-07-2013, 03:07 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Is there any chance there is a JVM mark inside the side plate or on the frame under the side plate? John usually marked his guns somewhere, even on the early pieces. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-07-2013, 08:17 AM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Don't know. But genuine Martz Luger has book value, so there must be some special collector interest on it, but you need to prove it's a genuine Martz Luger, just by words is not enough (of course, words may be enough, depends on buyer). Assume it's genuine Martz Luger, it should be lower than Interarms Mauser. Postwar vs postwar, Mauser vs Martz, factory new vs restored parts, both stopped production,,,, I did not see any reason Martz should go above Interarms. The only advantage on Martz is the much smaller volume, but its interest party is also much smaller. That's my opinion. === 2nd thought. For dedicated Martz collector, above mentioned "vs" does not count. What's really important will be the first point -- it must be a genuine Martz. Somehow, you have to offer proof.

09-07-2013, 08:55 AM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	That is one nice gun, and if it walked in my door I'd be all over it. To me it seems that it should be priced well over the Interarms guns, but that is just emotion speaking, not experience. The Martz name should bring added value to the package, and I'd hope to get around $2k for it. But please understand that I have no facts or history to back that figure up. A very nice shooter to be sure, one that has a lot of build-time and craftsmanship into it. dju

09-07-2013, 09:05 AM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	There was a prior discussion on Jan's site years ago! http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...hn-Marz-Lugers

09-07-2013, 09:43 AM	#6
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Where does Mike Krause fit in?http://www.krausewerk.com/45luger.html

09-07-2013, 03:28 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Curt, Oh...follow up question...is there any value in the magazine? I suspect only to the owner of the matching serial numbered gun if one exists. Serial number is 8159. Yes..there is collector interest in these mags. I suspect this one is in the $100-150 range. If this beautiful pistol were mine I would acquire a couple of MecGar mags for shooting. Although I am sure the one you have would work fine. Personally..if this came down to me from my Father with the paperwork and provenance you have with it..I would shoot it till the day I died. BUT.. I understand some people are shooters and some not. I also wouldn't accept a penny less than $2000, John will not be making any more of these and any fine Navy style length shooter pistol made by John Martz should easily bring that on the open market. Anyway thanks for showing it! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-07-2013, 04:10 PM	#11
Bluznvice New User Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, I've thought about that too but have been reluctant to start disassembly. Somehow I have a bad knack for fubar'ing things when I start taking them apart. But now that I know it's basically shooter value, I will. Take it apart I mean...not fubar it And Jerry, I kind of agree with you. But like my dad, sometimes I'm sentimental and sometimes I ain't. He certainly wasn't sentimental about passing down the 90% all matching 41 byf with holster which he sold for $700! But, I'm sure my own sons would gnash their teeth if I got rid of this one, and it IS kinda nice owning a piece of history.

09-07-2013, 05:03 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Curt, sometimes I'm sentimental and sometimes I ain't.I understand..sometimes you need 2 grand sometimes you don't! Remember though..once it's sold and the 2K spent..It's gone. If you don't need the $$ hang onto it. John Martz just passed and might be a little later until his guns go up in value... __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-07-2013, 08:03 PM	#13
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Jvm... I had the privilege of working with, and on, JVM's creations for over 30+ years... His Lugers span all disciplines, collecting, shooting, and art..... I will say this.. The gun pictured looks like his classic satin white with polished straw small parts.. Very distinctive and a basic finish for all his creations whether left, "In the white" or "rust blued"... The grips are also characteristic of his early work... finely checkered, and highly figured French Walnut.. Nice gun... 2K would be too little... it will increase in value over time... There will be no more...Best to you, til...lat'r....GT

09-08-2013, 04:24 AM	#14
Bluznvice New User Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks GT and Rick. I really kick myself for not getting out to see John with this gun in the last couple of years. Kept meaning to. He only lived about 30 minutes away. Another lesson learned...never put off today what you won't be able to do tomorrow.

09-11-2013, 12:12 PM	#15
Greg B. User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 34 Thanks: 1 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	This gun sounds more like a custom Luger to me rather than a shooter. It has a pedigree, decent sights and a decent trigger. I suspect Winchester ammunition was recomended because the sights were set up to shoot this accurately. I don't know a lot about Lugers but it sounds like your dad wanted a good acurate pistol and that is what he got.