Frozen Extractor, can't see into chamber

Newmanos · 05-16-2013, 10:37 PM

it's been in a relatives closet for 50 years and looks to be in great shape but the round extractor on the top of the slide won't go up? I oiled it but i can't get it to come up to see into the chamber? Can it just be rusted shut? It looks to be in great shape. How can i fix?

mrerick · 05-16-2013, 10:41 PM

There is a small spring that holds the extractor into position. It's possible that it is rusted, or jammed with debris.

Try drifting out the pin that is holding the extractor into the breech block. Do it slowly and carefully with the proper drifting punch. With it removed, the extractor should come straight off the breech block. Then you can inspect and clean the well where the spring is.

--- See following posts about the "toggles" rather than the extractor ---

Marc

DavidJayUden · 05-16-2013, 10:51 PM

Are you talking about the thin extractor down the middle of the top or are you referring to the toggle assembly and the round knobs to raise the toggle?
dju

ithacaartist · 05-17-2013, 12:12 AM

Sounds like the toggle knobs, to me. If you can't draw them up (and back), you can't see into the chamber.

I'd carefully remove the grips and immerse the whole gun in a good penetrant/rust buster before I did anything else in this situation.

Eric, does the barrel extension move in relation to the grip frame? You can check by pushing the muzzle against a stout but padded surface, like an old book, etc. The entire top end of the pistol should move back about 1/4", and the toggle knobs should contact the ramps/ears near them on the top, back of the frame, which, when firing, influence them to begin traveling upward. If the top end is free, it can be removed and its components carefully freed up from the rust bond. This would be part of the process of field-stripping, anyway, to check for serial numbers on the small parts in that system. YouTube has several videos showing how it's done. If the action won't budge, soak it first for a day or three, while you come back for more advice. Don't forget to remove the wood "furniture"!

Can a gun that looks great on the outside be rusted shut? Neglected for decades, you betcha!

BTW, welcome to the forum.

alanint · 05-17-2013, 06:16 AM

Since we know nothing of which model this is, it may be an early gun with the old style sear bar with the safety on, as well.
Eric, was the safety off and the magazine removed from the pistol when you tried this?

JTD · 05-17-2013, 06:57 AM

I think alanint hit the nail on the head. They cannot cycle toggle because the safe is on.

sheepherder · 05-17-2013, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Since we know nothing of which model this is, it may be an early gun with the old style sear bar with the safety on, as well.

Or a 1900 with the toggle lock...

DavidJayUden · 05-17-2013, 08:17 AM

Also, silly question, but are we absolutely certain that there is not a live round in the chamber?
If I could not peer into the chamber from the rear, I might very carefully stick something into the muzzle to measure depth.
Some will recommend looking for the word GELADIN sticking up on the top. Not me.
But that is a risky business for a person not familiar with Lugers and not recommended.
Anyway, I'm getting nervous here without photos of the gun AND Newmanos agreeing to wait patiently while we get him thru this without injury or damage.
dju

alanint · 05-17-2013, 08:36 AM

Good advice. I based my theory on the statement that the gun "looks to be in great shape", which would preclude most rust and damage theories.

Newmanos · 05-17-2013, 06:55 PM

thanks all, ill try what ithacaartist said, i'll remove grips and soak it with penetrant and see if it frees it up.

DavidJayUden · 05-17-2013, 06:58 PM

First of all, are you certin that the chamber is empty?

Newmanos · 05-17-2013, 07:05 PM

yes I am certain the chamber is empty i have been extremely cautious

Newmanos · 05-17-2013, 08:22 PM

It is not an early model, 1935 Model.

Newmanos · 05-17-2013, 08:56 PM

the barrel extension does move back to where the toggles touch the ramps but it just wont go up. i took the grips off and sprayed it down good with penetrant and will let it sit for a couple days.

DavidJayUden · 05-17-2013, 09:49 PM

And you are certain that the safety is in the off position, so that you can NOT read the writing under the safety lever?

Newmanos · 05-17-2013, 09:55 PM

yes.

DavidJayUden · 05-17-2013, 11:05 PM

Newmanos: OK, soak it overnight in light oil, diesel or kerosene. Where are you located?
Guys, should he use a dowel into the muzzle with the gun assembled and with the battery to the rear bump against he breech face to force the toggle up, or remove the top half, remove the rear toggle pin, and then go against the breech face?
I wish I had it here in front of me...
dju

ithacaartist · 05-17-2013, 11:28 PM

If the upper moves back, try to rotate the take-down lever down to release the side plate from its position and move the top end forward and out of the frame. I'm thinking the entire upper might just slip out at this point.

If this can be accomplished, you'll be more likely to see what the problem is, plus have access all around it And at that point the rear toggle axle will be accessible. If it can be slid/gently tapped out from right to left, you're on the right track; even better if the breech block will slip back and out of the extension, using the other David's technique--at which point you'll also be able to gently apply a little force by hand to flex/rotate the joints. DJU's suggestion to soak it means, I believe, to immerse it entirely. This way, none of the kerosene will drip/dry off.

We can go farther explaining how to clean the joints before re-lubricating, but will wait until you report the previous steps are accomplished successfully.

Newmanos · 05-18-2013, 04:18 PM

I got the entire upper off, Now i can't get the toggle pin out.

Vlim · 05-18-2013, 04:55 PM

Simple way to check if loaded:
Put a stick in through the muzzle and measure how far it goes on.
Withdraw and compare distance from muzzle to front of breech block outside.

The difference in distance will say enough.

05-16-2013, 10:37 PM	#1
Newmanos User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 13 Thanks: 22 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Frozen Extractor, can't see into chamber it's been in a relatives closet for 50 years and looks to be in great shape but the round extractor on the top of the slide won't go up? I oiled it but i can't get it to come up to see into the chamber? Can it just be rusted shut? It looks to be in great shape. How can i fix?

05-16-2013, 10:41 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	There is a small spring that holds the extractor into position. It's possible that it is rusted, or jammed with debris. Try drifting out the pin that is holding the extractor into the breech block. Do it slowly and carefully with the proper drifting punch. With it removed, the extractor should come straight off the breech block. Then you can inspect and clean the well where the spring is. --- See following posts about the "toggles" rather than the extractor --- Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-17-2013, 12:12 AM	#4
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,368 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	Sounds like the toggle knobs, to me. If you can't draw them up (and back), you can't see into the chamber. I'd carefully remove the grips and immerse the whole gun in a good penetrant/rust buster before I did anything else in this situation. Eric, does the barrel extension move in relation to the grip frame? You can check by pushing the muzzle against a stout but padded surface, like an old book, etc. The entire top end of the pistol should move back about 1/4", and the toggle knobs should contact the ramps/ears near them on the top, back of the frame, which, when firing, influence them to begin traveling upward. If the top end is free, it can be removed and its components carefully freed up from the rust bond. This would be part of the process of field-stripping, anyway, to check for serial numbers on the small parts in that system. YouTube has several videos showing how it's done. If the action won't budge, soak it first for a day or three, while you come back for more advice. Don't forget to remove the wood "furniture"! Can a gun that looks great on the outside be rusted shut? Neglected for decades, you betcha! BTW, welcome to the forum. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-17-2013, 11:28 PM	#18
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,368 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	If the upper moves back, try to rotate the take-down lever down to release the side plate from its position and move the top end forward and out of the frame. I'm thinking the entire upper might just slip out at this point. If this can be accomplished, you'll be more likely to see what the problem is, plus have access all around it And at that point the rear toggle axle will be accessible. If it can be slid/gently tapped out from right to left, you're on the right track; even better if the breech block will slip back and out of the extension, using the other David's technique--at which point you'll also be able to gently apply a little force by hand to flex/rotate the joints. DJU's suggestion to soak it means, I believe, to immerse it entirely. This way, none of the kerosene will drip/dry off. We can go farther explaining how to clean the joints before re-lubricating, but will wait until you report the previous steps are accomplished successfully. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-16-2013, 10:51 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Are you talking about the thin extractor down the middle of the top or are you referring to the toggle assembly and the round knobs to raise the toggle? dju

05-17-2013, 06:16 AM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Since we know nothing of which model this is, it may be an early gun with the old style sear bar with the safety on, as well. Eric, was the safety off and the magazine removed from the pistol when you tried this?

05-17-2013, 06:57 AM	#6
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 428 Thanks: 218 Thanked 410 Times in 151 Posts	I think alanint hit the nail on the head. They cannot cycle toggle because the safe is on.

05-17-2013, 08:17 AM	#8
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Also, silly question, but are we absolutely certain that there is not a live round in the chamber? If I could not peer into the chamber from the rear, I might very carefully stick something into the muzzle to measure depth. Some will recommend looking for the word GELADIN sticking up on the top. Not me. But that is a risky business for a person not familiar with Lugers and not recommended. Anyway, I'm getting nervous here without photos of the gun AND Newmanos agreeing to wait patiently while we get him thru this without injury or damage. dju

05-17-2013, 08:36 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Good advice. I based my theory on the statement that the gun "looks to be in great shape", which would preclude most rust and damage theories.

05-17-2013, 06:55 PM	#10
Newmanos User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 13 Thanks: 22 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks all, ill try what ithacaartist said, i'll remove grips and soak it with penetrant and see if it frees it up.

05-17-2013, 06:58 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	First of all, are you certin that the chamber is empty?

05-17-2013, 07:05 PM	#12
Newmanos User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 13 Thanks: 22 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	yes I am certain the chamber is empty i have been extremely cautious

05-17-2013, 08:22 PM	#13
Newmanos User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 13 Thanks: 22 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is not an early model, 1935 Model.

05-17-2013, 08:56 PM	#14
Newmanos User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 13 Thanks: 22 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	the barrel extension does move back to where the toggles touch the ramps but it just wont go up. i took the grips off and sprayed it down good with penetrant and will let it sit for a couple days.

05-17-2013, 09:49 PM	#15
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	And you are certain that the safety is in the off position, so that you can NOT read the writing under the safety lever?

05-17-2013, 09:55 PM	#16
Newmanos User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 13 Thanks: 22 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	yes.

05-17-2013, 11:05 PM	#17
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Newmanos: OK, soak it overnight in light oil, diesel or kerosene. Where are you located? Guys, should he use a dowel into the muzzle with the gun assembled and with the battery to the rear bump against he breech face to force the toggle up, or remove the top half, remove the rear toggle pin, and then go against the breech face? I wish I had it here in front of me... dju

05-18-2013, 04:18 PM	#19
Newmanos User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 13 Thanks: 22 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I got the entire upper off, Now i can't get the toggle pin out.

05-18-2013, 04:55 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Simple way to check if loaded: Put a stick in through the muzzle and measure how far it goes on. Withdraw and compare distance from muzzle to front of breech block outside. The difference in distance will say enough.