Screws for stock iron

PatrickB · 03-18-2013, 04:38 PM

The threaded part of the screws the hold the iron fitting to the wood on my artillary stock are broken off. I bought some screws that looked right at a gun show but they were an incorrect thread and would not screw into the tapped holes on the bottom of the iron. The new screws were a standard modern metric thread. Does anyone know what the correct thread form is? Better yet, does anyone know where to get correct screws?

mrerick · 03-18-2013, 05:54 PM

The screws that fit the grips to the frame on a Luger are an unusual British thread called "Whitworth". "BSW".

It's possible that the stock iron screws adhere to the same standard.

You can learn more about that standard here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth

Marc

LU1900 · 03-18-2013, 07:58 PM

I have a pair avaliable if you need and don't find in USA
Price is 70$ + shipping

Kitkat041836 · 03-19-2013, 09:51 AM

If you need a set of the right screws I would get the pair offered
you at $70.00 plus shipping as they are almost inposiable to find
the right ones for a stock iron.
Thanks,George

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2013, 10:59 AM

are broken off..That's not something I have ever seen. Were they broken off in the holes and you had to back them out or what?

I agree with George..Get em where you can find em. Their rare. If Patrice has a set you are a lucky man.

PatrickB · 03-19-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

are broken off..That's not something I have ever seen. Were they broken off in the holes and you had to back them out or what?

I agree with George..Get em where you can find em. Their rare. If Patrice has a set you are a lucky man.

Only the bottom 1/4" or less has threads. Both bolts had the threaded portion broken off when I got the stock, and the broken pieces had already been removed. The iron was being held on only with the friction on the bolts in the wood. I didn't realize anything was wrong until I tried to tighten the iron by turning the screw heads.

I will try to contact LU1900.

John Sabato · 03-19-2013, 12:42 PM

May I suggest that anyone, including the OP, who owns a genuine stock iron, take it to a local hardware store and use their ability to determine the actual thread specification for the stock iron screws by trying samples of screws in the threaded portion?

This would be good information to know. Unfortunately, my Luger Blueprint CD does not include prints and specs on the stocks...

IF anyone has a genuine blueprint for the stock and associated parts, Please PM me, I would love to be able to include it in the Blueprint CD.

2nd question... does anyone who owns both a genuine stock, and a reproduction stock know if the repro screws will fit a genuine stock?

PatrickB · 03-19-2013, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

May I suggest that anyone, including the OP, who owns a genuine stock iron, take it to a local hardware store and use their ability to determine the actual thread specification for the stock iron screws by trying samples of screws in the threaded portion?

This would be good information to know. Unfortunately, my Luger Blueprint CD does not include prints and specs on the stocks...

IF anyone has a genuine blueprint for the stock and associated parts, Please PM me, I would love to be able to include it in the Blueprint CD.

2nd question... does anyone who owns both a genuine stock, and a reproduction stock know if the repro screws will fit a genuine stock?

John-- I bought some new screws at a gun show that were supposed to be for a stock iron. They were the same configuration and length as the original screws and looked perfect. However, they were a modern metric thread and would not screw into the original iron more than 1 or 2 threads. Also, none of the usual US thread forms available at a hardware store would fit the threads. Marc's suggestion that they are Whitworth thread is probably correct. The screws I bought may have been for the reproduction stock irons.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2013, 06:11 PM

take it to a local hardware store and use their ability to determine the actual thread specification for the stock iron screws by trying samples of screws in the threaded portion?

John, This would be a useless enterprise..I had a very knowlegeable machinist make me a half dozen screws. He tracked down the information and made me screws that are perfect.

No reproduction stock iron I know of uses the same pitch as an original. I can contact Ken and see if he can remember all that info..I forget if he bought or borrowed the dies to make my screws. But he knows what they should be.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2013, 06:50 PM

Just got off the phone with Ken..He says it was an obscure American thread. He is going to the shop to see exactly what so it may be awhile before he gets back to me!

Apparently the German bought many of their machines used during this era from British and American company's.

mrerick · 03-19-2013, 07:12 PM

The Sturgess book contains prints of the stock, it's stock iron and the screw.

It's copyrighted so I can't post it's contents.

Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2013, 07:34 PM

The Sturgess book contains prints of the stock, it's stock iron and the screw.

Marc, Does the Sturgess book give any measurements, thread pitch or any useful information we are looking for? Or just show the stock iron and the screw?
I have a copy but I am up to my ears in making steel rivets and washers for an Artillery rig..Do you have the page #?

mrerick · 03-19-2013, 08:25 PM

Hi, It's on Sturgess page 1834 at the end of the lP.08 Drawings. There are are measurements in millimeters, but no profile description of the thread.

Marc

MikeP · 03-19-2013, 11:21 PM

Evans obsolete screws is a great source.
If he already has a pattern he can make a perfect repro.
I had him make a few obscure pieces by supplying him an original.
Great guy to deal with.

Olle · 03-19-2013, 11:47 PM

What does this screw look like?

alanint · 03-20-2013, 06:14 AM

And why would they break? Old metallurgy? Overtightening?

I can't imagine applying enough pressure to a shoulder stock to break the screws without seriously damaging the wood.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-20-2013, 11:20 AM

I can't imagine applying enough pressure to a shoulder stock to break the screws

Doug, That is certainly true! Although twice now I have found original snail drum loading tools with pivot pins broken off at the thread ends! This pin is about twice as robust as a stock screw..It also has a slotted head and you have to wonder how the break took place? Neither slot has any damage and there is no extreme downward pressure I can figure out. You would think it almost has to be a metal or hardening problem?

John Sabato · 03-20-2013, 12:39 PM

Evan's Obsolete Screws is now:

http://www.customscrewsandmore.com/

lugerholsterrepair · 03-20-2013, 05:58 PM

Rick, There is really no need to have these screws made..I know of 3 sources where they can be bought. Patrice offered the gentleman a set..were I him I would take that offer.

Seems like when I was younger, the price for a screw was cheaper than the numbers I have seen in this thread. While I am sure everything was cheaper way back when..this is today. Supply and demand is a factor and Artillery stock iron parts are not found at the local hardware.

One could always rethread the hole for something more common..BLASPHEMY!! To ruin a $500 original stock iron because you are too cheap to buy the screws already offered would be criminal! That would NEVER be a thing a true collector would even consider. Destroying the integrity of an original historical artifact..that idea should never even be brought up! It's one thing to add a repro part but to actually go where you can't return..NO!

lugerholsterrepair · 03-20-2013, 07:15 PM

"I hope the guy finds, mods, or makes what he needs; the result will be the same."

You couldn't be more wrong so I will agree to disagree. Decisions made that cannot be reversed are poor decisions. Drilling out threads on an original stock iron would be the height of stupidity and the owner would vastly devalue the iron altering it forever. Rick you should really re consider giving that kind of advice. Anyone prescribing to that method would be a very poor steward of historical artifacts entrusted to your care.

I hope the guy does the right thing, buys some correct screws and ignore's bad advice.

03-18-2013, 04:38 PM	#1
PatrickB User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 26 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Screws for stock iron The threaded part of the screws the hold the iron fitting to the wood on my artillary stock are broken off. I bought some screws that looked right at a gun show but they were an incorrect thread and would not screw into the tapped holes on the bottom of the iron. The new screws were a standard modern metric thread. Does anyone know what the correct thread form is? Better yet, does anyone know where to get correct screws?

03-18-2013, 05:54 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The screws that fit the grips to the frame on a Luger are an unusual British thread called "Whitworth". "BSW". It's possible that the stock iron screws adhere to the same standard. You can learn more about that standard here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-18-2013, 07:58 PM	#3
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 42 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	I have a pair avaliable if you need and don't find in USA Price is 70$ + shipping __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

03-19-2013, 10:59 AM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	are broken off..That's not something I have ever seen. Were they broken off in the holes and you had to back them out or what? I agree with George..Get em where you can find em. Their rare. If Patrice has a set you are a lucky man. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-19-2013, 12:42 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	May I suggest that anyone, including the OP, who owns a genuine stock iron, take it to a local hardware store and use their ability to determine the actual thread specification for the stock iron screws by trying samples of screws in the threaded portion? This would be good information to know. Unfortunately, my Luger Blueprint CD does not include prints and specs on the stocks... IF anyone has a genuine blueprint for the stock and associated parts, Please PM me, I would love to be able to include it in the Blueprint CD. 2nd question... does anyone who owns both a genuine stock, and a reproduction stock know if the repro screws will fit a genuine stock? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-19-2013, 09:51 AM	#4
Kitkat041836 RIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 195 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts	If you need a set of the right screws I would get the pair offered you at $70.00 plus shipping as they are almost inposiable to find the right ones for a stock iron. Thanks,George

03-19-2013, 06:11 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	take it to a local hardware store and use their ability to determine the actual thread specification for the stock iron screws by trying samples of screws in the threaded portion? John, This would be a useless enterprise..I had a very knowlegeable machinist make me a half dozen screws. He tracked down the information and made me screws that are perfect. No reproduction stock iron I know of uses the same pitch as an original. I can contact Ken and see if he can remember all that info..I forget if he bought or borrowed the dies to make my screws. But he knows what they should be. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-19-2013, 06:50 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	Just got off the phone with Ken..He says it was an obscure American thread. He is going to the shop to see exactly what so it may be awhile before he gets back to me! Apparently the German bought many of their machines used during this era from British and American company's. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-19-2013, 07:12 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The Sturgess book contains prints of the stock, it's stock iron and the screw. It's copyrighted so I can't post it's contents. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-19-2013, 07:34 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	The Sturgess book contains prints of the stock, it's stock iron and the screw. Marc, Does the Sturgess book give any measurements, thread pitch or any useful information we are looking for? Or just show the stock iron and the screw? I have a copy but I am up to my ears in making steel rivets and washers for an Artillery rig..Do you have the page #? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-19-2013, 08:25 PM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi, It's on Sturgess page 1834 at the end of the lP.08 Drawings. There are are measurements in millimeters, but no profile description of the thread. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-19-2013, 11:21 PM	#14
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Evans obsolete screws is a great source. If he already has a pattern he can make a perfect repro. I had him make a few obscure pieces by supplying him an original. Great guy to deal with.

03-19-2013, 11:47 PM	#15
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	What does this screw look like?

03-20-2013, 06:14 AM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	And why would they break? Old metallurgy? Overtightening? I can't imagine applying enough pressure to a shoulder stock to break the screws without seriously damaging the wood.

03-20-2013, 11:20 AM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	I can't imagine applying enough pressure to a shoulder stock to break the screws Doug, That is certainly true! Although twice now I have found original snail drum loading tools with pivot pins broken off at the thread ends! This pin is about twice as robust as a stock screw..It also has a slotted head and you have to wonder how the break took place? Neither slot has any damage and there is no extreme downward pressure I can figure out. You would think it almost has to be a metal or hardening problem? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-20-2013, 12:39 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Evan's Obsolete Screws is now: http://www.customscrewsandmore.com/ __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-20-2013, 05:58 PM	#19
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	Rick, There is really no need to have these screws made..I know of 3 sources where they can be bought. Patrice offered the gentleman a set..were I him I would take that offer. Seems like when I was younger, the price for a screw was cheaper than the numbers I have seen in this thread. While I am sure everything was cheaper way back when..this is today. Supply and demand is a factor and Artillery stock iron parts are not found at the local hardware. One could always rethread the hole for something more common..BLASPHEMY!! To ruin a $500 original stock iron because you are too cheap to buy the screws already offered would be criminal! That would NEVER be a thing a true collector would even consider. Destroying the integrity of an original historical artifact..that idea should never even be brought up! It's one thing to add a repro part but to actually go where you can't return..NO! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-20-2013, 07:15 PM	#20
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	"I hope the guy finds, mods, or makes what he needs; the result will be the same." You couldn't be more wrong so I will agree to disagree. Decisions made that cannot be reversed are poor decisions. Drilling out threads on an original stock iron would be the height of stupidity and the owner would vastly devalue the iron altering it forever. Rick you should really re consider giving that kind of advice. Anyone prescribing to that method would be a very poor steward of historical artifacts entrusted to your care. I hope the guy does the right thing, buys some correct screws and ignore's bad advice. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."