What is wrong with this picture(s)?

[jetlagdave]

I am new to Lugers and the forum and would appreciate any help from those of you with far more knowledge than myself with the following subject.
I wrote a previous thread concerning this Commercial Luger but now I have more information to hopefully generate an answer to the question as to why it is void of ANY proof mark.
It is a 3 line Stoeger American Eagle.
Serial # 405 V.
Trigger.."05"
Take down lever "05"
Take down plate "05"
No ser #s on any other small parts
Extractor..."loaded"
Safety........"SAFE"
Magazine..."GERMANY" in wood base
Right side frame....see photos
Grips.........no numbers
Front of receiver: 405V, "GERMANY", flowing V
6 inch barrel, no serial number or proofs

My main concern is the absence of proofs and a rear toggle (DWM) that appears to have a phosphate finish. And grips without numbers or "Germany" on the underside. I am considering purchasing this gun and I suspect the value would be drastically reduced for the same model WITH proof marks. (Fake?) I also feel that the American Eagle should exhibit a greater degree of "crispness" for a gun that looks so nice in other respects.
Didn't mean to get so "windy", but I think my other post lacked sufficient information for educated answers.

[alanint]

There is a primer on the site somewhere about a previous fake. You need to show a good closeup of the Stoeger mark on the side of the receiver. Is it roll marked or engraved?

My first impression, based on the "DWM" and the Stoeger mark from a distance and the odd "tail" on the serial zeros is....."Fake".

[jetlagdave]

I too found that "zero", to be curious. I will try to get a better picture of the Stoeger mark, but it does not appear to be engraved, from my untrained eye. (The photo doesn't it do it justice.) What are your concerns with the DWM mark? The finish or the DWM itself? I will look for that primer you wrote about.
Any thoughts on the condition of the American Eagle?
Dave

[alanint]

The Eagle does not raise any alarms for me. The bottom curl of the "D" in DWM looks at least "freshened" and the parked finish bothers me as well. The make or break for these models is the Stoeger rollmark. You need to find an authentic one online and do a very close comparison. The fakes have obvious differences, which would not be apparent on their own.

I wish the guys who know how to find this stuff here would chime in!!

[jetlagdave]

It is early in the post...maybe they will later. I will be sending a better pic in an hour or so. The Stoeger line appears to be very clean to me....but like you said, a picture of a CORRECT gun could be worth a thousand word$$$$$.
Dave

[jetlagdave]

Here are some better pics of the "Stoeger" line. Now that I have enlarged it, I can see why one might think it is an engraving. I also included better pics of the DWM mark.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[Norme]

Hi Dave, I don't collect Commercial Lugers and all I know about Stoeger's is to be very careful! You may find this thread from Jan Still's forum helpful.
Regards, Norm
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...hlight=stoeger

[jetlagdave]

Thanks, I tried to log into gunboards but it wouldn't let me view the pictures.
Dave

[Norme]

Hi Dave, I believe you have to become a member to view pictures. Enrolling shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes. You have to promise not to plot the overthrow of the US Government, and swear that you haven't committed adultery (this may sound like a joke, but that's what I had to do when I became a US citizen in 1973!).
Regards, Norm

[DavidJayUden]

This one is interesting to be sure and I know nothing about Stoegers. Is it a 1906 AE receiver or a later receiver that got the AE? Barrel flange looks large suggesting a hybrid. Interesting combination of finishes that I've never seen before, but maybe it is common to the Stoeger guns. The Stoeger logo looks pre-bluing, while the lower printing was applied post bluing. Never seen a barrel marked that way, sideways, no bore diameter and abreviated numbering. Definitely re-barreled.
Don't mind me, as I know nothing of these guns, I'm just talking aloud. But a facinating thread that I will be watching.
Does Simpsons have any listed that we could study for comparison?
dju

[jetlagdave]

Norm, I can log in but I am not able to go to Jan C. Stills forum. Could be because I left the adultery question blank! Ha!

DJU,
The markings on the right side are suppose to be as you described. The Stoeger line was stamped at the factory and the bottom line stamped in the U.S. after Stoeger received them. Stoeger also advertised that a different barrel could be special ordered. But I still think there should be some sort of proof mark from the factory. All of the pictures I have seen of other guns (Stoeger) clearly show the proof mark.

Thanks for your reply,
Dave

[guns3545]

Just a couple comments.

The barrel was clearly mounted in other than the factory, The pistol probably left with a 4 inch barrel and was changed out in the USA. But is not unusual. See Stoeger catalogs of the day. In fact, Stoeger even sold various length barrels and receivers as an item but only guaranteed performance if they did the work.

A minor correction. All three lines were roll marked with a die in Berlin. The 1928/9 production had two lines on the receiver and one on the frame. The word GENUINE was added in the USA by Stoeger and is of different style. Not particularly unusual to see halos around frame and not around receiver, Steel hardness was different as was heat treating. Metal was in the white as it left Berlin for Oberndorf.

The two lines in the close up are consistent with the roll mark die. Oval o's, line up of the r's and line up up of the elongated comma with the I in Inc. The o's on the 1922 production at DWM were round and line up of letters was slightly different. The later 1928/9 production were oval. Commas at DWM were curly. The later were more slash like. Having said that, I'm not really sure that they have not been touched up and am bothered by the obviously incorrect (from a finish standpoint) toggle link. Minor point: This is the first Stoeger, I've seen with a serial number lower than 415v that has the wiggly Y in York caused by a deformed die. Common above 415v. Could be just the way they pulled parts during assembly and serialization.

However, I am most concerned about the lack of proofs. Of the 125 Three line Stoegers produced, there have been 43 identifed and each and everyone have one or the other of the acceptable proofing. Now, proofs were applied after final assembly and test while the pistol was in the white. There should be proofs on the receiver and the barrel. Excuse the barrel if it had been swapped out but no rational reason the receiver and breech block should not have proofs. Theory: The receiver was in terrible condition or had been damaged; the proofs were destroyed in restoration and the two line inscription touched up. One theory. Who knows??. This is where having the gun in hand really matters. An alternate scenario says this gun went to Palestine and found its way back to the USA. However, it is not one of the guns that Don Hallock bought from Palestine Electric. Most of the guns used in Palestine were rough and invited restoration. This would explain the Stoeger markings without GENUINE as the Palestine Electric Stoegers did not have the GENUINE because they never went to Stoeger. Again, who knows?

Not terribly bothered about the lack of GENUINE. Although if the theory of the barrel being changed at Stoeger is valid and this gun was reworked and sold by Stoeger, I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine that the GENUINE was not added. Stoeger and DWM/Mauser were involved in an exclusivity law suit and the GENUINE stamp was an idea of Stoeger's that BKIW/DWM/Mauser would not go along with and so they added it in the USA after bluing of course so in most cases the GENUINE has halos.

But its a nice looking gun and I have learned never to say never, much less always.

Apologies for the long winded reply.

John

[DavidJayUden]

John:
Your "long winded" reply was very much appreciated.
dju

[jetlagdave]

John,
Like dju, I was very pleased to receive your "long winded reply". Insofar as I am new to this, it is exactly the explanation I had hoped for. I read about the Palestine Lugers in John Walter's book but it didn't make sense to me until your post. The gun in question belongs to my brother-in-law (one that I like), and was given to him two weeks ago as a gift from a cousin. The Stoeger was discovered in box belonging to his deceased father. (A World War II vet). It had been in that box for 40+years. (Not implying that it was a WW II gun.) He has zero knowledge of Lugers ( and I am only slightly above that), and asked me to investigate its origins and worth. He also told me that I could have the first opportunity to purchase the gun. My point of all this is that he would not where or how to begin to "fake" a gun. Hence the mystery that you have helped to clarify.

So.....since it is less than original and more than a shooter, would you care to hazard a guess as to its value?

I too live in Florida and I would drive a considerable distance to have you evaluate the gun in person. Not being "pushy" here, just a thought.

Thanks again for your time and expertise.
Dave