Need info on two no-proof lugers

new2lugers · 03-04-2013, 09:13 AM

I have two Lugers that appear to be very interesting. I cannot find much information about the type, manufacturer, date or anything else, really.

A cursory look at blue book of guns has not really given me much to work with and I've been directed to this site to help me gather more information about the guns below.

The silver one doesn't appear to have any proofs or markings on it except one "eagle over 2" under the barrel, very faint. It appears to have a nickel finish with straw colored small parts typical to other Lugers with straw colored parts. Other than that, no other typical commercial, navy or other proofs I've read online. No markings on top of the chamber.

The black one has nice custom grips. They feel wooden with the initials FAS engraved on them, seems to match the name that's also etched along the side of the chamber.

There is a 21 marked on top of the chamber which I assumed was a manufacturer code as I understand was typically used to mask which manufacturer was making pistols.

It would appear all parts match on guns. I've slept a few nights since I took the pictures so I'm going to field strip them again tonight and see if I can find matching numbers on any parts or any other hidden markings.

Any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

guns3545 · 03-04-2013, 09:39 AM

Well.

I'll take a stab at this as one of my uncles was in Suhl for a short while and has a Krieghoff parts gun as distinguished from one of the PX variations.

And that's what I think these two guns are for a few reasons not the least of which it appears Frank Stall was in Germany in 1945 and the acceptance marks are Krieghoff and because there were a lot of Krieghoff unemployed gunsmiths and assemblers out of work in 1945 and used the parts in the liberated factory to build guns for the GIs and later on a more formal basis for the PX.

The personalized side frame inscription is neat as is the workmanship on the grip panels. And GIs liked plated guns. You see a lot of them around.

The 21 on the toggle link has no particular meaning other than it is there. The acceptance proofs are fairly definitive but inspection of the interior parts should reveal a lot more.

Hope this helps. I'm sure others will chime in. Now, of course, these could be a total fabrication; but parts and PX guns do not go for a lot of money and so I am betting that these are not fakes. But closer inspection could reveal more.

Hope this helps,

John

cdmech · 03-04-2013, 11:13 PM

Those grips are beautiful! They look allot like my Black Forest Cuckoo Clock!
Marc

lugersrkewl · 03-04-2013, 11:16 PM

what do the extractors on both pistols have when lifted up on the left side?

alanint · 03-05-2013, 07:03 AM

I agree with John. Krieghoff guns built post war for an occupying GI. Could you spell out the full inscription that is engraved on the side of the upper receiver? I can only make out the GI's name and the word Krieghoff.

John Sabato · 03-05-2013, 08:15 AM

Doug, the inscription is clearly seen in photo #2.

Frank Stall
Germany 1945
Waffenfabrik
HEINRICH KRIEGHOFF
Suhl

new2lugers · 03-06-2013, 07:00 PM

Sorry for the lack of updates, it's especially busy this week...
Also, my newness to firearms will show in this post, forgive me in advance...

Quote:

Originally Posted by guns3545

Well.

I'll take a stab at this as one of my uncles was in Suhl for a short while and has a Krieghoff parts gun as distinguished from one of the PX variations.

And that's what I think these two guns are for a few reasons not the least of which it appears Frank Stall was in Germany in 1945 and the acceptance marks are Krieghoff and because there were a lot of Krieghoff unemployed gunsmiths and assemblers out of work in 1945 and used the parts in the liberated factory to build guns for the GIs and later on a more formal basis for the PX.

The personalized side frame inscription is neat as is the workmanship on the grip panels. And GIs liked plated guns. You see a lot of them around.

The 21 on the toggle link has no particular meaning other than it is there. The acceptance proofs are fairly definitive but inspection of the interior parts should reveal a lot more.

Hope this helps. I'm sure others will chime in. Now, of course, these could be a total fabrication; but parts and PX guns do not go for a lot of money and so I am betting that these are not fakes. But closer inspection could reveal more.

Hope this helps,

John

Thanks John. This helps greatly! What does PX mean/stand for?
The fact that these were pieced together using left over parts after the war makes more sense on the nickel-colored one.

There simply isn't any part match stamps on nickel luger other than the two proofs I found.

See the picture for black luger proof I found on the (what I believe to be called) the extractor.

The other picture shows another proof I found on the nickel luger. Hopefully this brings about more info.

How would you, in your opinion, label these pistols for future identification? eg. 1920 commercial Krieghoff or...something else?

Being that they may be Luger PX pistols, what would be a rough estimate as to a price? I have no intention of selling them but it's interested me knowing that they were built for GIs for aftermarket...

Thank you very much again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdmech

Those grips are beautiful! They look allot like my Black Forest Cuckoo Clock!
Marc

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugersrkewl

what do the extractors on both pistols have when lifted up on the left side?

I hope the picture shows you what you asked. Only one had proofs on what I believe is called the extractor

guns3545 · 03-06-2013, 07:43 PM

PX stands for Post Exchange. These were stores set up for the use of Military Personnel where they could buy a variety of goods.

The extractor is part of the bolt assembly. The part that contains the firing pin. You will see a piece that has a hooked type front. If you carefully lift the hooked end, there should be a word stamped on the side of the extractor.

The proofs on what appears to be part of the toggle train are not Krieghoff,. Probably from the DWM era. But this is consistent with the guns assembled from whatever parts were left floating around. To be expected.

The best description for these guns: " Krieghoff Post War GI Parts Guns" in excellent condition. And, of course mention of the plating and the side frame inscription and the custom carved grip panels.

Valuation is difficult. Maybe in the $3500 to $5000 range. Maybe a bit more if a buyer interested in GI guns is found. But others on this board who are dealers can certainly comment better than I. But, as I said earlier, these are not nearly as valuable as a righteous Krieghoff that was issued to the Luftwaffe.

Hope this helps.

John

03-04-2013, 09:13 AM	#1
new2lugers New User Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 2 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Need info on two no-proof lugers I have two Lugers that appear to be very interesting. I cannot find much information about the type, manufacturer, date or anything else, really. A cursory look at blue book of guns has not really given me much to work with and I've been directed to this site to help me gather more information about the guns below. The silver one doesn't appear to have any proofs or markings on it except one "eagle over 2" under the barrel, very faint. It appears to have a nickel finish with straw colored small parts typical to other Lugers with straw colored parts. Other than that, no other typical commercial, navy or other proofs I've read online. No markings on top of the chamber. The black one has nice custom grips. They feel wooden with the initials FAS engraved on them, seems to match the name that's also etched along the side of the chamber. There is a 21 marked on top of the chamber which I assumed was a manufacturer code as I understand was typically used to mask which manufacturer was making pistols. It would appear all parts match on guns. I've slept a few nights since I took the pictures so I'm going to field strip them again tonight and see if I can find matching numbers on any parts or any other hidden markings. Any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you! Last edited by new2lugers; 05-26-2015 at 10:34 AM.

03-05-2013, 08:15 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Doug, the inscription is clearly seen in photo #2. Frank Stall Germany 1945 Waffenfabrik HEINRICH KRIEGHOFF Suhl __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-04-2013, 09:39 AM	#2
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 435 Thanks: 649 Thanked 490 Times in 216 Posts	Well. I'll take a stab at this as one of my uncles was in Suhl for a short while and has a Krieghoff parts gun as distinguished from one of the PX variations. And that's what I think these two guns are for a few reasons not the least of which it appears Frank Stall was in Germany in 1945 and the acceptance marks are Krieghoff and because there were a lot of Krieghoff unemployed gunsmiths and assemblers out of work in 1945 and used the parts in the liberated factory to build guns for the GIs and later on a more formal basis for the PX. The personalized side frame inscription is neat as is the workmanship on the grip panels. And GIs liked plated guns. You see a lot of them around. The 21 on the toggle link has no particular meaning other than it is there. The acceptance proofs are fairly definitive but inspection of the interior parts should reveal a lot more. Hope this helps. I'm sure others will chime in. Now, of course, these could be a total fabrication; but parts and PX guns do not go for a lot of money and so I am betting that these are not fakes. But closer inspection could reveal more. Hope this helps, John

03-04-2013, 11:13 PM	#3
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	Those grips are beautiful! They look allot like my Black Forest Cuckoo Clock! Marc

03-04-2013, 11:16 PM	#4
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	what do the extractors on both pistols have when lifted up on the left side?

03-05-2013, 07:03 AM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I agree with John. Krieghoff guns built post war for an occupying GI. Could you spell out the full inscription that is engraved on the side of the upper receiver? I can only make out the GI's name and the word Krieghoff.

03-06-2013, 07:43 PM	#8
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 435 Thanks: 649 Thanked 490 Times in 216 Posts	PX stands for Post Exchange. These were stores set up for the use of Military Personnel where they could buy a variety of goods. The extractor is part of the bolt assembly. The part that contains the firing pin. You will see a piece that has a hooked type front. If you carefully lift the hooked end, there should be a word stamped on the side of the extractor. The proofs on what appears to be part of the toggle train are not Krieghoff,. Probably from the DWM era. But this is consistent with the guns assembled from whatever parts were left floating around. To be expected. The best description for these guns: " Krieghoff Post War GI Parts Guns" in excellent condition. And, of course mention of the plating and the side frame inscription and the custom carved grip panels. Valuation is difficult. Maybe in the $3500 to $5000 range. Maybe a bit more if a buyer interested in GI guns is found. But others on this board who are dealers can certainly comment better than I. But, as I said earlier, these are not nearly as valuable as a righteous Krieghoff that was issued to the Luftwaffe. Hope this helps. John