1920 dwm

pqschipper · 10-25-2012, 01:31 PM

Hello,

Noobie here. I recently inherited a 1920 DWM from my uncle and was looking to get some more information on what you all though of it's condition and value. Also, I'd like to know more about the markings on the gun and what information that the markings convey. I realize that the 3038 is the serial number and that the other "38"s represent parts matched to this gun, but the other markings are a mystery.

Any comments are most appreciated.

Many thanks,
Patrick

alanint · 10-25-2012, 01:49 PM

Your pistol is a Weimar era, (post WW1 German Goverment) Police pistol, which was first issued to a unit and then possibly passed onto another unit. The Unit marking experts will weight in on the Unit mark on your grip.

The Military acceptance stamps on your gun are also of interest.

DavidJayUden · 10-25-2012, 02:23 PM

This is an interesting gun! Like Alan said, it looks like an early commercial that was re-directed to the Police. I'm noticing how it was re-numbered in military fashion, and rebarrelled. Is it 9mm or .30 Luger?
Is there any evidence of a stock lug on the lower rear grip strap?
dju

pqschipper · 10-25-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Is it 9mm or .30 Luger?
Is there any evidence of a stock lug on the lower rear grip strap?
dju

I believe that it's a 9mm (holding a ruler across the muzzle, the inside diameter appears to be 9mm).

stock lug? I'm not sure what that means or what to look for. I've had the gun apart and can take more pictures if necessary. Just let me know.

Thanks.

swampsavage · 10-25-2012, 03:23 PM

Looking at the pic of the magazine bottom there is no evidence of stock lug.

wlyon · 10-25-2012, 04:33 PM

With the proof marks on the left side I would say this was originally a 1st issue then Weimar police. Since the 1st issue had no chamber marking the 1920 was added during it's reissue. The 1920 is a permissive stamp and not a true date. They also did not have a stock lug . Serial numbers were placed in commercial positions and then if reissued generally had military placement added. Looks like a nice luger with history. The small a on the frame is part of the serial number. (3038a ).Bill

SteveM · 10-25-2012, 06:11 PM

Looks like a 1908 converted to police. Did belong to a signal unit(I think) before it was a police pistol. The 1920 stamp indicates government ownership I do believe. I like this one..

lugersrkewl · 10-25-2012, 10:27 PM

Marienwerder district police? Why would they proof the left side?

RJS · 10-25-2012, 10:31 PM

Does it have a holdopen latch and spring? It seems this pistol have several lives.

Patronen · 10-25-2012, 10:39 PM

Interesting First issue P08, that was taken into Police service. Looking through Don Maus book, History Writ in Steel, if I've read it right it looks like the canceled mark looks to be a Police mark that may be from the Schupo district of Marienwerder/Westpreuben.
Thanks for sharing your P08.

pqschipper · 10-25-2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJS

Does it have a holdopen latch and spring? It seems this pistol have several lives.

pardon my ignorance but if you can tell me where to find this holdopen latch/spring, I can can take a picture. Pulling the toggle back with the magazine inserted, the breach stays open. Ejecting the magazine, the breach remains open until the toggle is pulled back and released. This sounds normal.

Patronen · 10-25-2012, 11:22 PM

First Issue P08's originaly were not fitted with a Holdopen. Some were retroffited later, noticeable on the right side of the pistol. From what you have described it sounds like yours has a holdopen.

pqschipper · 10-26-2012, 12:06 AM

No. No holdopen present. See attached photo.

Also found addition marking on the barrel and inside the frame with the receiver removed.

alanint · 10-26-2012, 05:27 AM

Your pistol DOES have a holdopen, (see tip of its spring in the lower right corner of the above photo), which would make this pistol later than first issue, since there is no evidence of a retrofit on the outside of the pistol.

Karl · 10-26-2012, 08:44 AM

In looking closely at the photo of the side I see a mark that may be an added holdopen that has been finished to match the frame, although there is no proof mark. Perhaps a closer photo of this area would clarify.

KFS

pqschipper · 10-26-2012, 11:46 AM

Looking closely at the outside of the frame, I can see no evidence that anything has been modified. Attached are pictures of the holdopen with and without the spring in place. Surely looks like the frame was engineered this way.

Thanks!

Ron Wood · 10-26-2012, 01:50 PM

The gun is a 1908 First Issue as evidenced by the proofs/acceptance marks on the left side of the receiver and lack of stock lug. The hold open has been added but either the frame was refinished at the time of police modification which obliterated the tiny hold open Erfurt inspection stamp, or the hold open may have been added by the police armory which would not have had an inspection stamp applied.
At any rate, it is an early WWI military piece that was subsequently acquired by a police unit, modified and given a 1920 property stamp during the Weimar era. Nice gun with an interesting history and in very nice condition considering its long service.

DavidJayUden · 10-26-2012, 02:18 PM

Rebarreled?
dju

Don M · 10-26-2012, 03:23 PM

Patrick, you have a very interesting gun. As stated above, it was reissued to the police after WWI and received the 1920 government (police) property stamp. Dave is correct in identifying the marking S.Ma.I.K.35. as being from the Schupo of the Marienwerder district --- specifically the command stationed in Elbing (Ma.I.). The K. is a little uncertain but, in the early 1920s, this command used letters to designate Hundertschaften (companies) and one other example of a K. from this unit is listed in HWIS Table 11-7.

The unit marking has been canceled and it was not replaced with S.Wpr.I. which was specified for this unit in the 1932 marking order. It is quite possible that the gun was surplused before that date and ultimately reissued to a Gemeindepolizei unit in the mid-1930s. Many of these smaller-city police did not mark their pistols and all unit marking of police weapons ceased in 1937. It probably received a sear safety but no mag safety sometime from about 1935 on, by which time mag safeties had been deemed a bad idea.

The barrel is definitely a replacement. It has an E/33 Simson proof and the number 2 on the bottom, the latter indicating manufacture by Simson in 1922. The Berlin Police Armory had purchased a number of these barrels and used them in reworking police P08s and LP08s from about 1928 onward. I suspect the rebarreling occured when the pistol was reissued in the mid-1930s. Does the barrel have the stamp PTV or TP (superimposed) over and eagle on the right side?

The pistol probably remained in police service through WWII.

pqschipper · 10-26-2012, 06:12 PM

Don et al, thanks for the great info. I'll have a closer look at the markings on the right side of the barrel when I get home on Sunday. (I'm currently at the shore in NJ, battening down the hatches in preparation for hurricane Sandy, headed this way).

10-25-2012, 01:31 PM	#1
pqschipper User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1920 dwm Hello, Noobie here. I recently inherited a 1920 DWM from my uncle and was looking to get some more information on what you all though of it's condition and value. Also, I'd like to know more about the markings on the gun and what information that the markings convey. I realize that the 3038 is the serial number and that the other "38"s represent parts matched to this gun, but the other markings are a mystery. Any comments are most appreciated. Many thanks, Patrick Attached Thumbnails

10-25-2012, 03:23 PM	#5
swampsavage User Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Jackson County, GA Posts: 43 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looking at the pic of the magazine bottom there is no evidence of stock lug. __________________ John

10-25-2012, 04:33 PM	#6
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,530 Times in 943 Posts	With the proof marks on the left side I would say this was originally a 1st issue then Weimar police. Since the 1st issue had no chamber marking the 1920 was added during it's reissue. The 1920 is a permissive stamp and not a true date. They also did not have a stock lug . Serial numbers were placed in commercial positions and then if reissued generally had military placement added. Looks like a nice luger with history. The small a on the frame is part of the serial number. (3038a ).Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

10-25-2012, 10:39 PM	#10
Patronen User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Thanks: 335 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	Interesting First issue P08, that was taken into Police service. Looking through Don Maus book, History Writ in Steel, if I've read it right it looks like the canceled mark looks to be a Police mark that may be from the Schupo district of Marienwerder/Westpreuben. Thanks for sharing your P08. __________________ Dave

10-25-2012, 11:22 PM	#12
Patronen User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Thanks: 335 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	First Issue P08's originaly were not fitted with a Holdopen. Some were retroffited later, noticeable on the right side of the pistol. From what you have described it sounds like yours has a holdopen. Attached Images __________________ Dave

10-25-2012, 01:49 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Your pistol is a Weimar era, (post WW1 German Goverment) Police pistol, which was first issued to a unit and then possibly passed onto another unit. The Unit marking experts will weight in on the Unit mark on your grip. The Military acceptance stamps on your gun are also of interest.

10-25-2012, 02:23 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	This is an interesting gun! Like Alan said, it looks like an early commercial that was re-directed to the Police. I'm noticing how it was re-numbered in military fashion, and rebarrelled. Is it 9mm or .30 Luger? Is there any evidence of a stock lug on the lower rear grip strap? dju

10-25-2012, 06:11 PM	#7
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Looks like a 1908 converted to police. Did belong to a signal unit(I think) before it was a police pistol. The 1920 stamp indicates government ownership I do believe. I like this one..

10-25-2012, 10:27 PM	#8
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	Marienwerder district police? Why would they proof the left side?

10-25-2012, 10:31 PM	#9
RJS User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vermont Posts: 45 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Does it have a holdopen latch and spring? It seems this pistol have several lives.

10-26-2012, 12:06 AM	#13
pqschipper User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No. No holdopen present. See attached photo. Also found addition marking on the barrel and inside the frame with the receiver removed. Attached Thumbnails

10-26-2012, 05:27 AM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Your pistol DOES have a holdopen, (see tip of its spring in the lower right corner of the above photo), which would make this pistol later than first issue, since there is no evidence of a retrofit on the outside of the pistol.

10-26-2012, 08:44 AM	#15
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	In looking closely at the photo of the side I see a mark that may be an added holdopen that has been finished to match the frame, although there is no proof mark. Perhaps a closer photo of this area would clarify. KFS

10-26-2012, 11:46 AM	#16
pqschipper User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looking closely at the outside of the frame, I can see no evidence that anything has been modified. Attached are pictures of the holdopen with and without the spring in place. Surely looks like the frame was engineered this way. Thanks! Attached Thumbnails

10-26-2012, 01:50 PM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The gun is a 1908 First Issue as evidenced by the proofs/acceptance marks on the left side of the receiver and lack of stock lug. The hold open has been added but either the frame was refinished at the time of police modification which obliterated the tiny hold open Erfurt inspection stamp, or the hold open may have been added by the police armory which would not have had an inspection stamp applied. At any rate, it is an early WWI military piece that was subsequently acquired by a police unit, modified and given a 1920 property stamp during the Weimar era. Nice gun with an interesting history and in very nice condition considering its long service. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-26-2012, 02:18 PM	#18
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Rebarreled? dju

10-26-2012, 03:23 PM	#19
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Patrick, you have a very interesting gun. As stated above, it was reissued to the police after WWI and received the 1920 government (police) property stamp. Dave is correct in identifying the marking S.Ma.I.K.35. as being from the Schupo of the Marienwerder district --- specifically the command stationed in Elbing (Ma.I.). The K. is a little uncertain but, in the early 1920s, this command used letters to designate Hundertschaften (companies) and one other example of a K. from this unit is listed in HWIS Table 11-7. The unit marking has been canceled and it was not replaced with S.Wpr.I. which was specified for this unit in the 1932 marking order. It is quite possible that the gun was surplused before that date and ultimately reissued to a Gemeindepolizei unit in the mid-1930s. Many of these smaller-city police did not mark their pistols and all unit marking of police weapons ceased in 1937. It probably received a sear safety but no mag safety sometime from about 1935 on, by which time mag safeties had been deemed a bad idea. The barrel is definitely a replacement. It has an E/33 Simson proof and the number 2 on the bottom, the latter indicating manufacture by Simson in 1922. The Berlin Police Armory had purchased a number of these barrels and used them in reworking police P08s and LP08s from about 1928 onward. I suspect the rebarreling occured when the pistol was reissued in the mid-1930s. Does the barrel have the stamp PTV or TP (superimposed) over and eagle on the right side? The pistol probably remained in police service through WWII. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

10-26-2012, 06:12 PM	#20
pqschipper User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Don et al, thanks for the great info. I'll have a closer look at the markings on the right side of the barrel when I get home on Sunday. (I'm currently at the shore in NJ, battening down the hatches in preparation for hurricane Sandy, headed this way).