What does ERMA stand for?

[siegersallee]

I have seen ERMA in reference to Lugers I think.
What does this stand for and what is the significance?

Richard

[pors12]

Hello,

ERMA stands for "Erfurter Maschinenfabrik"

best

Otto

[siegersallee]

Ah...mystery solved!

Is the ERMA equal to the Imperial Military Arsenal at Erfurt that manufactured weapons until 1918 for German military.

Thank you so much.

[Ron Wood]

No, ERMA is a civilian firm...Erfurt Arsenal is a government entity.

[siegersallee]

Ron,

I see. Anything that is ERMA is commercial.

Now the punch line. Assuming all else is equal condition wise and all parts are matching where they should be, is an Erfurt Arsenal luger more or less valuable that an ERMA.

Does this queston make sense. Did the dates of weapons production at both places coincide?

[alanint]

Erma was civilian owned but certainly a goverment contractor, so there are many Erma made products, which are military.

Erma was founded in 1922 by Berthold Geipel, so does not coincide with the Erfurt Goverment Arsenal, which ceased operations after 1918, nor did it ever make 9mm Lugers.
Erma made K98 and .22 training carbines, P08 .22 conversion units and most famously, the MP40 Submachineguns for the Germans in WW2, along with spares.
After WW2, they began making spare parts for NATO weapons, along with sporting firearms, such as the .22 Lugers we are familiar with. It was sold a couple of times, at one point becoming part of Steyr Mannlicher. They went bankrupt sometime in the mid 1990s, so the name has disappeared as a corporate entity.

1930s and World War 2 era codes for Erma were:
S/27, 27, AX and lastly, AYF, depending on when the product was produced between 1935 and 1945.
Below is a photo of my Erma made MP40.

[pors12]

Hello,

That was the last rifle they produced in the end of the 1980´s.
But they could not sell enough of this very heavy sniper rifle.

But near perfect workmanship, but to expensive for police .....

best

Otto

[siegersallee]

Thanks for all the info and complete answers.

Hmmm...a 22 caliber Luger , what a waste of a good Luger (IMHO).

[Vlim]

Mauser always planned to do a .22lr version of the Parabellum in the 1970s. They wanted to use Erma's .22lr conversion sets as a basis for that version and hoped that Erma would go bankrupt (something which followed the company around throughout the 70s and 80s), but miraculously, Erma did survive long enough for Mauser to miss the opportunity to buy them, and the .22lr Mauser Parabellum never materialized (except for a few prototypes).

[MFC]

Originally Posted by Vlim

and the .22lr Mauser Parabellum never materialized (except for a few prototypes).

Vlim,
Do you have any pictures of one, or better yet... do you have one in your safe?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by siegersallee

Assuming all else is equal condition wise and all parts are matching where they should be, is an Erfurt Arsenal luger more or less valuable that an ERMA.

Just to be clear here, the ERMA "Luger" is not a Luger. The action mimics the toggle action of the Luger, but is entirely different. Metallurgy is different. The Erfurt IS a Luger. You can't compare the two.

[ithacaartist]

Richard,

I've bought a few Ermas recently and have a fairly comprehensive collection of examples of the "Luger Wannabe" style models. (La.22, Ep.22, Et.22, KGP69[a .22], and KGP69a--which is a .380. I also have one of the post war .22 conversion kits installed in my Mauser 29/70.)

Over the past months, I've been experimenting and working with these. I've replaced springs in most of them, along with several front toggle links that have broken--this on account of using ammo that was too hot--during attempts to find the ammo format they work best with.

Their reputation is sort of polarized in that some consider them worthless junk, others have examples that shoot just about any ammo and have never failed. I'm somewhere in the middle and think that though there are shortcomings in design and potential function, they can be set up to work fairly well until the springs need to be replaced.

The Ep/Et/La series is the one that breaks their Zamak toggle parts because overpowered loads will hyper-extend the "decorative" toggle action, hammering the breech block against the rear toggle link, and forcing the upper corners of the rear of the breech block to become pivot points in the resultant tearing of the ears from the front toggle link.

If you're going to buy and shoot one of these, start with fresh springs from Bob's Gun Parts ($25 for complete set) and sub-sonic ammo, working your way up in f/sec rating until the load gives proper energy to functioning of the action. (40 gr. round nose) Also, the mag lips must be just so to feed correctly.

Do a search of the forum for these threads, in which lots of this has been discussed; too lengthy to describe all over again here, but will tell all I know if specifically asked.

The KGP's are better mechanically and metallurgically. Granted, their frames are still Zamak, but interaction between them and the steel upper only occurs when assembling or dismantling the pistol. All the upper and action in these is steel. These are the best behaved of my lot, particularly the .380, which makes as big a bark when it goes off as it is cute--the smallest of the Luger Lookalikes.

David Parker

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Granted, their frames are still Zamak...

Interestingly, the British made some buttplates for the Enfield No 4 rifle out of Zamak. I don't have the exact description of that alloy handy, but I sent off a Zamak buttplate to a fellow Enfield Forum member a couple months back (most Enfield buttplates were made of brass)...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zamak (formerly trademarked as ZAMAK[1] and also known as Zamac) is a family of alloys with a base metal of zinc and alloying elements of aluminium, magnesium and copper. Zamak alloys are part of the zinc aluminium alloy family; they are distinguished from the other ZA alloys because of their constant 4% aluminium composition.[2] The name zamak is an acronym of the German names for the metals of which the alloys are composed: Zink (zinc), Aluminium, Magnesium and Kupfer (copper).[2] The New Jersey Zinc Company developed zamak alloys in 1929. While zinc alloys are popularly referred to as pot metal or white metal, zamak is held to higher industrial standards.

(Pic, L to R: steel, brass, Zamak)

[siegersallee]

David,

No I was not going to buy one. I saw one and the dealer was selling it for as much as a 1939 P.08 that was in collectible condition, all matching, a little wear but a very honest and I thought desirable piece. When I said that I thought he was way too high on the Luger, he said he would make me a good deal on the ERMA, which he had at the same price.

I declined.

What totally convinced me to pass on this guy, was that he was trying to get $700.00 for a 1916 P.08 holster that was in "good" condition but really nothing special. I bought an excellent one from Scotty Benedict for 1/2 that.

So that is why I was asking.

The way he spoke, an ERMA was a "special" Luger and very rare.

I also became suspicious when he could not tell me what ERMA meant.

Postino, thanks for clarifying for me that an ERMA is not even a Luger.

Richard.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by siegersallee

The way he spoke, an ERMA was a "special" Luger and very rare.

Definitely not. IMO, it's more or less a toy gun, novelty or whatever you may call it and the quality is on par with cheap starter guns. I'd say that the top dollar on those would be $250-$300 in excellent or "as new" condition. I paid $50 for mine, and after struggling with it for quite some time I'd say that I paid way too much.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by siegersallee

The way he spoke, an ERMA was a "special" Luger and very rare...

He may have had a mental hiccup and confused Erfurt with ERMA...IMO, a comparable Erfurt is worth more than a DWM and rarer to find as well...

I would consider the ERMA to be on a par with AirSoft replicas, and about comparable price-wise...

[siegersallee]

I totally agree on the DWM vs Erfurt valuation.

Even for the war period 1914-18, I think DWM production outstripped Erfurt production, making Erfurts more rare and, therefore, if in that same or comparable condition, more desirable.

Then there's those wonderful proof marks!

To me, there is a real sense of history with the Erfurts.

An Imperial Arsenal making weapons, with proof stamps galore, for a soon to be fallen Empire. I wax nostalgic (tear in the eye); can you not but here the dimming strands of "Deutschland über alles?"