1940 42 code luger grip variations, walnut, brown plastic, and black bakelite

[Jan C Still]

1940 42 CODE LUGER GRIP VARIATIONS, WALNUT, BROWN PLASTIC, AND BLACK BAKELITE
Do not post until this note removed!!
Photographs showing markings and grip details.
Figure 1. 1940 42 code Luger grip variations. Top to bottom: serial number 3369h walnut, 74i brown plastic, and 2237m black bakelite. Breech block has LTP. (Does not show in photograph.)
Figure 2. Tops 1940 42 code Lugers, top to botom: serial number 3368h, 74i and 2237m. E/655 shows on left barrel.
Figure 3. 1940 42 code, barrel and frame serial number. Barrel gauges: 8,81 8,82 8,81

[Jan C Still]

Figure 4a. 1940 42 code right receiver, serial number 3368h, E/655 E/655 LTP acceptance stamps and test proof. Note: These markings were stamped under the blue and often appear partly washed out.
Figure 4b. 1940 42 code right receiver, serial number 74i, E/655 E/655 LTP acceptance stamps and test proof.
Figure 4c. 1940 42 code right receiver, serial number 2237m, E/655 E/655 LTP acceptance stamps and test proof.
Figure 5. 1940 42 code matching magazines, (all E/37 122 code E/37). Left to right: 3368/h, 74/i and 2237/m.

[Jan C Still]

Figure 6a. Left slant 1940 42 code, serial number 3368h, walnut grips.
Figure 6b. Left slant 1940 42 code, serial number 74i, brown plastic grips.
Figure 6c. Left slant 1940 42 code, serial number 2237m, black bakelite grips.

[Jan C Still]

Figure 7. Underside grips, left to right, serial number 3368h walnut, 74i brown plastic, and 2237m black bakelite.
Figure 8a. Details 1940 42 code, serial number 3368h, underside wood grips.
Figure 8b. Details 1940 42 code, serial number 74i, underside brown plastic grips.
Figure 8c. Details 1940 42 code, serial number 2237m, underside black bakelite grips. There is a small half moon imperfection located on the inside of the right grip along the magazine recess. This is also present on the brown plastic grip above indicating both came from the same mold (Molchen).
Figure 9. Right side: 1940 dated 42 code Lugers showing grip variations. Top to bottom serial number 3368h walnut grips, serial number 74i brown plastic grips and serial number 2237m black bakelite grips.

[Jan C Still]

Note: The Mauser Parabellum by Hallock and Kant (page 220) list the SE/63-SE/63 or SE63-SE/83 as the only acceptance stamp used on the right receiver of the 1940 42 Code Lugers. This is incorrect ! The Mauser Parabellum books text indicates only the SE/655 is used. However, a 1940 42 Code Luger with what appears to be a SE/83 SE/63 LTP is shown on page 221. A mixed up photograph? Perhaps the authors Hallock and Kant will clear this up. If such a E/83 E/63 LTP Luger is discovered by a fellow collector please post a detailed description and photographs!


All observed 1940 42 code Lugers are stamped with the same array of acceptance stamps and test proof. The right receiver is stamped E/655- E/655- LTP. Its barrel is stamped with a LTP on its right side and E/655 on its left side; the bottom has a barrel gauge and the full serial number without suffix (see note above). The left breech block has a LTP. (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...2-and-byf-DATA) As all 1940 42 code Lugers are accepted and proofed the same, the only distinctions between them are the factory installed grips. Almost all have walnut grips. A very few have brown plastic grips or black bakelite grips. The Mauser Factory installation of wood grips and brown plastic grips on 1940 dated military Lugers is not controversial.

The factory installation of black plastic grips is very controversial; Hallock and Kant contend in the Mauser Parabellum (2010) page 228 that “In the event a 1940 42 code Luger is found with black plastic (Bakelite) grips they are not original to the pistol or the time frame. This situation only indicates that the original wood grips were replaced with black plastic grips sometime after mid-1941.” Hallock and Kant do not explain the basis of this statement and they were not at the Mauser Factory in 1940 observing the factory application of grips. Oddly, they consider the brown plastic grips found only on 1940 42 code Mauser (and some Krieghoff) Lugers as proper.

According to a 1939 German Army directive wood grips could be replaced by black plastic (bakelite) grips when wood grips were not available (Third Reich Lugers (1988) page 65). A drawing (blueprint) was approved for the black grips on 1 December 1939 and approved for the black magazine bottom on 1 March 1940 (Goertz 2002)


Randall Gibson on page 43 of The Krieghoff Parabellum (1980) reports that black bakelite grips appear on Mauser military Lugers intermittently during 1940 (on Lugers dated 1940). Gibson was an outstanding early Luger collector, researcher and author.

DAVE MOLCHENS BLACK PLASTIC LUGER GRIP TABLES. Only 1940 42 code Lugers posted below from Dave Molchens tables. From The German Luger Central Powers and Axis Pistols Forum. See complete table at this link:
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...S-DATA-REQUEST

Dave Molchens black Luger grip research listed in the table below gives added insight into the use of black bakelite grips on 1940 42 code Lugers.

TYPE 1: Exactly like coarse brown Krieghoff (HK) grips: 2 holes on each side. Detailed inside grip marks indicate the coarse brown HK grips came from the same mold as the Type 1 black grips.
Found on:
1940 42 2520f
1940 42 3615h
1940 42 4992h
1940 42 5946h
1940 42 577L
1940 42 2237m JS
1940 42 9433m
1940 42 2046n
1940 42 2049n
Note: Dave Molchen who has studied the type 1 grips in detail reports that common small markings and defects found on the inside of these grips indicate that the coarse brown plastic grips were made in the same mold as the type 1 black plastic grips.

TYPE 5: One hole each side. L/H low-- R/H high. R/H lug on R/H grip narrow.
Found on:
1940 42 6410d
1940 42 3619e
1940 42 4347h
TYPE 6: One hole each side. L/H low--R/H high. R/H lug on R/H grip wider.
Found on:
1940-42 9940f


Black Widow was a term invented by dealers in the early1970s’ to identify and increase the value of Lugers with factory installed black plastic grips. Some claim that many (originally) wood gripped 1940 42 code Lugers were converted to black widows years ago by dishonest dealers. A mix of all grip types (1-6) would be expected if the black grips were switched by dealers in the U.S. to create black widow Lugers. The predominate appearance of the type 1 black plastic grips on 1940 42 Code Lugers (9 reported to date) lends credibility to the concept that these grips were factory installed. There is also a question of where the black bakelite grips came from to do all this switching. To my knowledge such grips were not manufactured in the United States.

In summary, the detailed grip studies by Molchen (with the help of the members of this forum) strongly indicate that Type 1, black plastic grips were factory installed on 1940 42 code lugers by the Mauser factory at the time of manufacture.

Comments, corrections, criticism, additions or updates greatly appreciated.
For additional information see this post: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ht=Black+grips

Jan C Still

[alanint]

WOW! Thanks, Jan!

[Pistol]

Originally Posted by Jan C Still

Figure 7. Underside grips, left to right, serial number 3368h walnut, 74i brown plastic, and 2237m black bakelite.
Figure 8a. Details 1940 42 code, serial number 3368h, underside wood grips.
Figure 8b. Details 1940 42 code, serial number 74i, underside brown plastic grips.
Figure 8c. Details 1940 42 code, serial number 2237m, underside black bakelite grips. There is a small half moon imperfection located on the inside of the right grip along the magazine recess. This is also present on the brown plastic grip above indicating both came from the same mold (Molchen).
Figure 9. Right side: 1940 dated 42 code Lugers showing grip variations. Top to bottom serial number 3368h walnut grips, serial number 74i brown plastic grips and serial number 2237m black bakelite grips.

I posted this over at the other fourm as well, but then found this thread that had the good large photos showing the half-moon imperfection found on Type 1 and HK grips. I apologize in advanced for the duplicate post in both forums for those that are concerned with such things, but I want to ensure I have original grips. Also, as aforementioned this thread as a larger photo that shows the mold imperfection.

I think I may have some black grips that are like these found on some 1940 42 code Lugers. They are black, but have the same patterns as the brown plastic HK grips and the Type One bakelite grips in Molchen's study. The only difference being the top hole on the left grip has a plastic center that protrudes slightly as to mate with the right grip. The right grip has this also on the bottom hole. The bottom hole and the top hole on the left and right grip, respectively have the typical threads for a Type One bakelite.

Mine have the same small half moon imperfection located on the inside of the right grip along the magazine recess. Molchen's study showed that this half moon imperfection is also present on the brown plastic HK grips, therefore indicating both came from the same mold.

I first thought I had repos because the pin test did leave a slight mark. However the half moon imperfection is present and according to Molchens study indicates the same mold was used for my grips as the original brown HK grips and type one bakelite.

What is throwing me off is the pin mark from the pin test did make a small mark/hole. Perhaps I heated it up too long? One other possible explanation: could my grips be brown HK grips that were painted. I notice the grips in direct light look shiny, almost like there is a black paint or shellac on them.

Another, could these be original HK black plastic grips? Did HK make even make black plastic grips? And was the HK material regular plastic that would fail a pin test, or also bakelite? Some folks use plastic and bakelite interchangeably, so I want to make sure that there were indeed original proper plastic brown and black grips that were not made of bakelite material. Or are all original plastic grips bakelite? Also, someone told me that 1944 HK's had black plastic grips, but were they regular plastic or bakelite? The other explanation is my original, i.e., that they are repos. But would a repo have the same imperfection mark in the mold as the originals?

Below are some photos of my grips (first 2) and the photo from the forum (3rd photo). The mold imperfections along the mag recess are circled. Also note on the first photo at the right side I circled another mark that I have seen present on original black bakelite grips.

[twien]

I've been trying to get "permissions" to access your Luger forum for quite some time. I've sent numerous e-mails over the last six weeks to no avail. Is your site for invited guests only? What am I missing?

Regards!

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by twien

I've been trying to get "permissions" to access your Luger forum for quite some time. I've sent numerous e-mails over the last six weeks to no avail. Is your site for invited guests only? What am I missing?

Regards!

This forum or Jans?

Because I am the admin for Jan's, and I have never received any requests. Besides, you just self sign up and then you get an email and sign in...


Pistol, this posting is 5 yrs old and I took out the first quote, sorry.
I did make it a stickie as its a good one.

[Pistol]

Yes, I realize it is 5 years old. I posted my question about my grips here because this thread had comments and photos about Type One and brown HK grips that have the same mold imperfection I see in mine. Trying to figure out what I have.