Repost: Holster Mark ?

Robert Wiggins · 02-08-2002, 02:19 PM

This is a repost for those who may not have seen it.

I have a P08 holster which has a marking I have been trying to identify for some time. I offer pictures here for those who consider themselves knowledgeable in the field.

Hopefully someone will be able to identify the mark and possibly offer clues to the manufacturer of the holster.

The mark is on the top left side of the holster where the butt of the P08 would be located, and is covered when the holster flap is down (closed). There are no other markings on the holster. It is definitely a purposely applied stamp of some sort. It is well defined in the leather. I know the holster has not been tampered with as it came home with my father from WWII. He obtained it in Holland directly from a German Lieutenant who surrendered.

The fact that the Holster contained a Mauser 42 may not be of significance but if you wish further details on the P08 see my entry in the "Owners Corner".

Any help would be appreciated.

Holster Mark

02-08-2002, 04:36 PM

I can not identify the mark nor have I seen another holster of any type that has that mark. I wish you luck in identifying it. Among marks I have seen on luger holsters is a pair of capital letters L.S. (my memory may fail me it might have been L.D.) and it appeared on the inside back surface of two luger holsters from the Weimar or WW1 period.

Anyone know what this mark might mean. It was not a typical police mark because no number followed the letters AND it was on inside back surface of the holsters.

dave

Orv Reichert · 02-08-2002, 08:08 PM

It may not mean anything?..............surely not common!

Orv Reichert

02-08-2002, 10:15 PM

My bet is that it is some sort of tool imprint that was impressed into either the hide or the holster by accident during the proccessing of the hide or the fabrication of the holster. This may have been formed by some sort of clamping tool....hard to say.

I can tell you that the German Army fielded close to 500 Divisions...averaging 3-4 regiments each and when you throw in the other services you can easily come with as many as 3000 units that had some sort of tactical symbol....I'm not expert in all of these by any means...but have looked at about 1500 of them. I never recall seeing one had such non-descript qualities as the mark on the holster pictured. Also I find the location, size and most of all the presence of a stamped "unit symbol" on a piece of equipment like a holster to be un-likely.

I have seen (and own one) holster with larger unit symbols applied to the reverse and or flap (both inside and out). These are usually informally applied by the owner, I suppose out of a combination of pride and boredom.

IMO "expertise" has little or nothing to do with being able or not being able to conclusivily ID the stamp, there are plenty of un-answered questions on militaria and firearms of all types, regardless of how much they are studied.

I would recommend that if you could acertain where in Holland and the date (approx) that your father obtained the pistol, it would/may be possible to find which German unit/s this could have belonged to....I may be able to rule in or out if the marking is related to any of those units.

It may be frustrating to have something that you don't know all the answers to (I have items that took me 20 plus years to ID and still many more that no one I've showed them to can ID) but it is the nature of the subject and does not reflect on the knowledge or willingness to help possesed by collectors. I will help you any way I can but my initial feeling is that the mark does not represent anything.

02-09-2002, 10:28 AM

Dave, I believe that you are thinking of the L.G. (Leib-Gendarmarie -- Royal Military Police) usually seen on the inside back upper left corner of PO8 conversions of Walther Model 6 holsters. I just picked up a nice one of these at the Las Vegas show last weekend (see the classified). Tom H.

02-10-2002, 03:00 AM

You are exactly right--it all comes back to me now! And you won't be surprised to know I last saw the mark on a Walther Model 6 holster that was holding a 1917 dated Erfurt. The grandson of a GI said is Grandfather captured it from a German near the Remagen bridge. He was told by the local "luger expert" that it was an early luger holster dating from around 1908 but it was a Walther Model 6 holster.

Apparently there were more M6 holsters than M6's and many were converted to luger use.

Dave

Robert Wiggins · 02-10-2002, 11:04 AM

I appreciate your effort, and recognize it's a "toughy" to identify. Your suggestion with respect to identifying location of capture is difficult since my father passed away in 1997. I do however have his war records and am currently researching his holland locations and active german units for those locations. It will undoubtedly broaden my historical knowledge but probably will not be fruitful in identifying the mark on the holster. If i find anything of value I will post it for all.

Many thanks again for the efforts of the forum members. It's great to have resources like this to draw on.

Regards;

Robert Wiggins · 02-11-2002, 09:57 PM

In Bruce Culver's book "Panzer Colors II" page 79 under "tactical signs", there is a mark for "Signals" units that closely resembles the mark on the holster, except that the Signals mark is in the vertical plane rather than horizontal.

In the same book on page 33 there is a "Divisional Insignia" for the 20th Panzer Division for 1942 to 1945 that also closely resembles the holster mark but again is in the vertical plane.

The holster mark may represent either or none of the above.

Can't yet place the 20th Panzer Division in Holland theatre, but am still investigating.

Regards;

02-08-2002, 02:19 PM	#1
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Repost: Holster Mark ? This is a repost for those who may not have seen it. I have a P08 holster which has a marking I have been trying to identify for some time. I offer pictures here for those who consider themselves knowledgeable in the field. Hopefully someone will be able to identify the mark and possibly offer clues to the manufacturer of the holster. The mark is on the top left side of the holster where the butt of the P08 would be located, and is covered when the holster flap is down (closed). There are no other markings on the holster. It is definitely a purposely applied stamp of some sort. It is well defined in the leather. I know the holster has not been tampered with as it came home with my father from WWII. He obtained it in Holland directly from a German Lieutenant who surrendered. The fact that the Holster contained a Mauser 42 may not be of significance but if you wish further details on the P08 see my entry in the "Owners Corner". Any help would be appreciated. Holster Mark

02-08-2002, 04:36 PM	#2
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Repost: Holster Mark ? I can not identify the mark nor have I seen another holster of any type that has that mark. I wish you luck in identifying it. Among marks I have seen on luger holsters is a pair of capital letters L.S. (my memory may fail me it might have been L.D.) and it appeared on the inside back surface of two luger holsters from the Weimar or WW1 period. Anyone know what this mark might mean. It was not a typical police mark because no number followed the letters AND it was on inside back surface of the holsters. dave

02-08-2002, 08:08 PM	#3
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Holster Mark ? It may not mean anything?..............surely not common! Orv Reichert

02-08-2002, 10:15 PM	#4
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Repost: Holster Mark ? My bet is that it is some sort of tool imprint that was impressed into either the hide or the holster by accident during the proccessing of the hide or the fabrication of the holster. This may have been formed by some sort of clamping tool....hard to say. I can tell you that the German Army fielded close to 500 Divisions...averaging 3-4 regiments each and when you throw in the other services you can easily come with as many as 3000 units that had some sort of tactical symbol....I'm not expert in all of these by any means...but have looked at about 1500 of them. I never recall seeing one had such non-descript qualities as the mark on the holster pictured. Also I find the location, size and most of all the presence of a stamped "unit symbol" on a piece of equipment like a holster to be un-likely. I have seen (and own one) holster with larger unit symbols applied to the reverse and or flap (both inside and out). These are usually informally applied by the owner, I suppose out of a combination of pride and boredom. IMO "expertise" has little or nothing to do with being able or not being able to conclusivily ID the stamp, there are plenty of un-answered questions on militaria and firearms of all types, regardless of how much they are studied. I would recommend that if you could acertain where in Holland and the date (approx) that your father obtained the pistol, it would/may be possible to find which German unit/s this could have belonged to....I may be able to rule in or out if the marking is related to any of those units. It may be frustrating to have something that you don't know all the answers to (I have items that took me 20 plus years to ID and still many more that no one I've showed them to can ID) but it is the nature of the subject and does not reflect on the knowledge or willingness to help possesed by collectors. I will help you any way I can but my initial feeling is that the mark does not represent anything.

02-09-2002, 10:28 AM	#5
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Repost: Holster Mark ? Dave, I believe that you are thinking of the L.G. (Leib-Gendarmarie -- Royal Military Police) usually seen on the inside back upper left corner of PO8 conversions of Walther Model 6 holsters. I just picked up a nice one of these at the Las Vegas show last weekend (see the classified). Tom H.

02-10-2002, 03:00 AM	#6
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Repost: Holster Mark ? You are exactly right--it all comes back to me now! And you won't be surprised to know I last saw the mark on a Walther Model 6 holster that was holding a 1917 dated Erfurt. The grandson of a GI said is Grandfather captured it from a German near the Remagen bridge. He was told by the local "luger expert" that it was an early luger holster dating from around 1908 but it was a Walther Model 6 holster. Apparently there were more M6 holsters than M6's and many were converted to luger use. Dave

02-10-2002, 11:04 AM	#7
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Repost: Holster Mark ? I appreciate your effort, and recognize it's a "toughy" to identify. Your suggestion with respect to identifying location of capture is difficult since my father passed away in 1997. I do however have his war records and am currently researching his holland locations and active german units for those locations. It will undoubtedly broaden my historical knowledge but probably will not be fruitful in identifying the mark on the holster. If i find anything of value I will post it for all. Many thanks again for the efforts of the forum members. It's great to have resources like this to draw on. Regards;

02-11-2002, 09:57 PM	#8
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New Data: In Bruce Culver's book "Panzer Colors II" page 79 under "tactical signs", there is a mark for "Signals" units that closely resembles the mark on the holster, except that the Signals mark is in the vertical plane rather than horizontal. In the same book on page 33 there is a "Divisional Insignia" for the 20th Panzer Division for 1942 to 1945 that also closely resembles the holster mark but again is in the vertical plane. The holster mark may represent either or none of the above. Can't yet place the 20th Panzer Division in Holland theatre, but am still investigating. Regards;