LUGER FACTS VS. FICTION

Hi Everyone,


Some very interesting facts regarding the Luger, when confronted with concerns about it's evil nature:


1) There are conservatively, over 100,000 collectors of the Luger Pistol just in the United States.

2) The Luger was in vented prior to World War One, thus dubbed the 1908.

3) The Luger was not a principal wepon in the arsenals of Germany in either war.

4) Very few individuals were issued Lugers, as the were primarily an officer's gun, issued to a Unit.

5) Countless OTHER COUNTRIES used the Luger, with the Swiss making their own version.

6) The United States, if it had not been for Germany adopting the pistol, most likely would have adopted the Luger as it's principal sidearm, instead of the Colt .45.

7) The AMERICAN EAGLE LUGER is among the most sought after types of Lugers collected.

DWM, Stoeger, and others made a great deal of money, exporting the Luger to several countries, not the least The United States.

9) Luger sales in the U.S. ammount to several million dollars a year, thus helping our economy.

10) Luger collectors are among the most knowlegeable collectors in their field of interest.

11) Collectors of Lugers come from every part of our society, from Doctors, Lawyers, Law Enforcement Professionals to Social Workers, Plumbers, Teachers.... the list is endless.

12) There is a Luger for every budget from a shooter of $350.00 to a rare Cartridge Counter at $25,000.00 and up.

13) We are a fraternity of collectors who by our own admission govern ourselves and offer countless ammounts valuable information to each other regarding the hobby.

14) We are allways there for each other to solve our common problems.

15) No other firearm has initiated more research than the Luger. Everyday something new is learned about new examples and their history.

I could go on, and all of you could add more to the list.


Best Regards and Happy Collecting!


Tim Canney

[tom]

Hi Tim,


Nice post!


However I must take minor issue with a couple of your points.


First, the Luger when adopted into German military service was first known as the Marine Pistole 1904. Thats right, the Navy adopted Lugers first. The became the P-08 when the Army adopted the shorter barrel fixed sight version in 1908.


Points 3 and 4 are not completely accurate. The Luger was the standard issue pistol for both the Army and Navy before, during and after World War I. It is certainly true that since production could not keep up with demand that alternative pistols (C-96, Brownings, Frommer, etc, etc)were issued. That practice was followed by the Allies during the same period when M1917 Revolvers were issued in lieu of the M1911, for example.


The idea that Lugers were issued primarily to officers is not completely accurate either. While it is certainly true that many, many officers were issued Lugers, they were also issued to crews of machine guns, artillery men, tank crew, dispatch riders, medical personnel and others who were combatants but whose duty requirements effectively precluded them from using a Geweher 98 rifle. In the German Navy, the crews of submarines, torpedo boats, officers and enlisted members of the See Battalions were issued Lugers. Bottom line, it was more a matter of practacality than a badge of rank or status symbol. During W.W.II, the same practices were followed as the Luger was gradually being replaced by the P-38 and the host of miscellaneous handguns that the Deutsches Wehrmacht Heeres Waffen Amt procured.


Please excuse me if this sounds like nit picking because it is not intended to be sthat way; just wanted to comment on your otherwise very nice post.


Tom

Points well taken! I did'nt go into detail on all my points, but rather used them as broad illustrations of several points. I'm aware that the German Navy first adopted the Luger in 1904, and was trying to make the point that not every soldier was issued a Luger when they graduated the Gymnasium(highschool). The P38 was really the preferred pistol of the military during the Third Reich. Further the Luger wasn't a NAZI Gun any more than the 1911 was a Democratic Gun. Just looking at the gun for it's true merits rather than the "Dimestore Novel" idea that it was the "Gun of The Nazi's". It remains and will continue to remain the wepon it is a truly magnificent work of machinery and art.


Tim

[Joe]

Tim & Tom

The Luger was not issued as an officer's gun. In the First World War officers were expected to purchase their own sidearms and the military Luger that we collect are all government proofed, not private purchase.

Just check out period pictures from both wars, see how many "officers" are seen carrying Lugers. Some field grade officers might have them, but you don't see many senior officer with them. Officers like carring those smaller .32 or .380 cal automatics.

The SS did not have a military contract with Mauser, but the army & navy did. The Luftwaffe had their own contract with Kreighoff.

But then remember, every Luger brought home by a vet, weather he saw combat or not, was taken from a general, an SS officer or a fighter pilot, you never hear of one captured from an enlisted guy.

Some of the points you raise I have spent a good deal of time researching over the years..this is what I've found:

1.Many if not most officers owned Lugers over the period of both world wars. Many of these were commercial versions but there is serious evidence that they were also allowed to purchase military contracted pieces (probably at a slightly lower cost. Many officers also owned more than one service arm, ie a Luger and a 7.65mm.

2. The contract for WWII era Lugers was actually with the OKW (High Command Wehrmacht)Allocations of Lugers (and everything else) between the Army, Navy and Luftwaffe was decided at that level even though the Army (OKH)was deligated the responsibility of the procurment contracts and inpection offices. After about 1939 the Waffen SS came under the OKW for Arms,equipmet and operations. At this point the W-SS recieved it's arms from the Army at the orders of the OKW. Individual services (Army, Navy, SS Luftwaffe) were not allowed to levey their own contracts for arms (although it would appear the Luftwaffe may have bent some rules here!).

3. Most combat officers carried a 9mm....In WWII, the P.08 was the single most prevelant 9mm in the Geramn Military until at least some point in 1944!

Lugers were a standard police and military issue sidearm in both world wars and are described in the common manuals issued to personnel. Am I wrong in believing the criteria for issuance of lugers was whether the soldier was in the front lines (hence a large combat caliber weapon was desired) and if the individual had equipment to manage and defend (e.g., artillery, mg) or was responsible for leading combat troops (such as NCO's).


Smaller 7.65 cal weapons were recommended for fighter pilots and air crew (though lugers were common) and armored personnel primarily to save space with small size.


Until the early 1940s, did not officers have to buy their own sidearms? Hence, you don't see many 7.65 pistol holsters with military acceptance stamps until the 1940s. NCO's and others using lugers needed issue holsters and so you see lots of 1930s dated luger holsters.


These are undocumented beliefs I would like to confirm.


dave

Now Guys and Gals, this is what the forum is about!!!!


Thanks for all your views!!!!


Tim

mlm, I have generally found the same observations you point out to be true. I would add that many officers bought Lugers, esp before 1940, and I have ancedotal evidence that many of these were military procured examples (ie s/42, 42 marked). Many officers wanted a 9mm for combat wear and a 7.65 for "light duty" wear. This entire area of how Lugers were procured and how officers obtained weapons and equipment is poorly documented (published) and causes great mis-understanding. For example: on Third Reich Naval Lugers I would contend (I can support this view by general available KM Regs) that officer OWNED Lugers will not bear KM property marks. Some property marked Lugers may have been issued to KM officers but not sold to them. The same is true with unit (Army) marked WWI era Lugers. I believe that at least a fair number of Lugers were procured by the KM each year and not marked for the express purpose of selling to new Naval officers.

Interesting theory, BCC. In Jan Still's volume 1 paperback on Axis pistols, he provides a list of prices for each pistol. Those prices were presumably the prices charged to officers who bought the lugers, broomhandles, etc. I wonder what proportion of all military lugers were officer purchased versus military provided?

You and I both! I don't have a clue what the percentage breakdown would have been, but I have tried to speculate based on numbers of officers and pistol authorizations in the various units. It really becomes to hard for me to even guess. I could easily believe 20%.

[Big Norm]

I ran across a guy yesterday who says that he has a 30 cal police Luger. This does not seem logical to me. I don't think that a police department who want to stock different types of ammo for different calibers of Lugers. Anybody have info on this?

Big Norm