Weimar Police Cleaning Rod

wlyon · 05-10-2011, 01:16 PM

Slot cut in rod has star/sunburst with an L underneath. Same star as on some police luger magazines. According to Gortz and Sturgess this is a converted artillery rod. Lots of patina and rust. I cleaned the area where the star L is in order to see it. No other marks on rod. Comments?

John Sabato · 05-10-2011, 02:25 PM

Never saw one like it Bill. I believe it could be a converted Artillery rod...

klaus 3338 · 05-10-2011, 02:33 PM

Bill,
I am for myself sure that none or if than only very few LP08 rods were altered for the police. I do not know how many I found during the years but that were many.
The wooden handle distinguee from the LP08 rod. The police had 7 rings with the same distance between the rings and they were not so deep cut into the wood as on the LP08 rods.

There is another difference: (hard to explain for me in English) The shaft of the police rods are not formed like a spiral or thread.

I also have never seen the cut on a rod when I found it in Germany.

Can I see the shaft, please?

I hope that helps.

Regards Klaus

klaus 3338 · 05-10-2011, 02:39 PM

An old photo: I kept only the Police with the brass handle (on the left side of the photo). This was one of only two I found of this type and it is a poor example to explain the shaft because only these had the "shaft" formed as a spiral.
One more thing: Mostly were numbers on the part over the stop. One I owned had S.D.IV. and a number on it.

Edward Tinker · 05-10-2011, 03:36 PM

here is my police rod

klaus 3338 · 05-10-2011, 04:16 PM

Edward,
that is a pretty and correct example of a police rod.
Thanks for the photos.
The others are also interesting.
I have an exact "copy" of the second in the middle but do not know when it was made for ? (hope that was English). It is not the typical rod from 1906/1910.
The right one with the brass tip and the small loop could be one of the type which I found in
Sweden.

Edward Tinker · 05-10-2011, 04:29 PM

The middle one came with a 1926 holster and a friend of mine, Jim, has a rod that looks just like it, except his has an eagle 6 (simson) marking, and we both believe that the 1926 holsters were made for simson's (or likely were)

Ed

wlyon · 05-10-2011, 05:13 PM

Klaus,
Thanks for your input.

According to Gortz and Sturgess Vol 3 pg 1522:

"After 1918 numbers of LP08 cleaning rods were shortened to be used for the 100mm barreled P08 in police service."
"New handles usually of beechwood and having seven rings were fitted."
"New rods were also made to this specification but they lack the protective cap. The screw thread is shorter being only 40mm long and the usable thread start at the tip clearly differentiates these newly made from converted."

Their picture examples show spiraling threads.

I assume if artillery rods were cut down the threads would be spiralled (original artillery).

Here is a picture of the threads on my rod.

Jan Still's Weimar Luger and Early Nazi Lugers on page 182 shows two police rods. One appears to spiral; one doesn't?

It seems cleaning rods are a separate world with very little research or understanding.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-10-2011, 07:32 PM

Bill,
It seems cleaning rods are a separate world with very little research or understanding.

They are like tools..Up to now there has not been much published on them. Thankfully David Lindsay has changed this some for loading tools.

wlyon · 05-10-2011, 09:03 PM

Also in Bender's book Luger Holsters and Accessories on page 301 are 3 Weimar rods. Two have spiralled cleaning shafts and one does not. Obviously they were made both ways. Unless one or the other is fake which I doubt. Bill

klaus 3338 · 05-11-2011, 01:14 AM

"After 1918 numbers of LP08 cleaning rods were shortened to be used for the 100mm barreled P08 in police service."
"New handles usually of beechwood and having seven rings were fitted."
"New rods were also made to this specification but they lack the protective cap. The screw thread is shorter being only 40mm long and the usable thread start at the tip clearly differentiates these newly made from converted."

I think I cannot do more than repeat what I already wrote.
And it made no sense to make new wooden handles or new barrels for a Police rod.
The Police introduced muzzle protectors for their Lugers and if they would have used altered LP08 rods they would have used the brass protective cap.
But it was not so- The Police used only new made rods.
Achim Görtz was one of a few Luger experts who helped me when I started collecting Lugers and their accessories but he asked me after a few years about the accessories. He was one of two who went through our archives and worked there over month. But he does not know very much about rods, tools or holsters.
I know that he would not be angry with me that I wrote the last sentence here.

klaus 3338 · 05-11-2011, 01:39 PM

Bill,
I looked at Görtz "Die Pistole 08" and he does not mention that "After 1918 numbers of LP08 cleaning rods were shortened to be used for the 100mm barreled P08 in police service."
"New handles usually of beechwood and having seven rings were fitted."
"New rods were also made to this specification but they lack the protective cap. The screw thread is shorter being only 40mm long and the usable thread start at the tip clearly differentiates these newly made from converted.
I think that Dr. Sturgess made a mistake when he wrote that.

There is a 1928 dated order in the "Ministerialblatt für die Preußische innere Verwaltung" (for the Police) that the cleaning rod "holder" on the shorted LP08 holster has to be replaced by the magazine pouch.
By the way: This order could be the reason why the Police holsters have another fastener than the Army holsters. (Hope that was English)
Only with these holsters were the former LP08 rods used. But they do not have the brass stop because one could not put it into the rod holder. I add a photo of an altered LP08 holster with shorted rod holder. The first rod from left is a shorted LP08 rod. The next to the right are only shown for comparing the length of the different rods.

Best regards Klaus

wlyon · 05-11-2011, 06:36 PM

Klaus
Your shortened artillery rod has the 7 spirals on the drum. I assume this was replaced? Thanks for all the input. Seems we still have much to learn. But that's part of the fun. Regards Bill

klaus 3338 · 05-12-2011, 02:00 AM

I do not think that the drum was replaced. The rod was shorted on the top and I think they used the drum also for the shorted rod. The 7. ring is not so deep than the other six.
There are no documents in the German archives about the police rod. That make it not easy.
Regards Klaus

Jan C Still · 05-12-2011, 02:57 AM

Pages 160, and 181-182 of Weimar Lugers has a brief description of a number of Weimar Era cleaning rods.
Jan

sheepherder · 05-12-2011, 07:02 AM

Fascinating stuff...I had never thought much about period cleaning rods...Were they issued & stored in the holster??? (I think I've seen references to a 'cleaning rod pocket' in one of the holster threads)...

05-10-2011, 01:16 PM	#1
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Weimar Police Cleaning Rod Slot cut in rod has star/sunburst with an L underneath. Same star as on some police luger magazines. According to Gortz and Sturgess this is a converted artillery rod. Lots of patina and rust. I cleaned the area where the star L is in order to see it. No other marks on rod. Comments? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Bill Lyon

05-10-2011, 02:25 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Never saw one like it Bill. I believe it could be a converted Artillery rod... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-10-2011, 02:39 PM	#4
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	An old photo: I kept only the Police with the brass handle (on the left side of the photo). This was one of only two I found of this type and it is a poor example to explain the shaft because only these had the "shaft" formed as a spiral. One more thing: Mostly were numbers on the part over the stop. One I owned had S.D.IV. and a number on it. Attached Thumbnails

05-10-2011, 03:36 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	here is my police rod Attached Thumbnails __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-10-2011, 04:29 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	The middle one came with a 1926 holster and a friend of mine, Jim, has a rod that looks just like it, except his has an eagle 6 (simson) marking, and we both believe that the 1926 holsters were made for simson's (or likely were) Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-10-2011, 02:33 PM	#3
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	Bill, I am for myself sure that none or if than only very few LP08 rods were altered for the police. I do not know how many I found during the years but that were many. The wooden handle distinguee from the LP08 rod. The police had 7 rings with the same distance between the rings and they were not so deep cut into the wood as on the LP08 rods. There is another difference: (hard to explain for me in English) The shaft of the police rods are not formed like a spiral or thread. I also have never seen the cut on a rod when I found it in Germany. Can I see the shaft, please? I hope that helps. Regards Klaus

05-10-2011, 04:16 PM	#6
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	Edward, that is a pretty and correct example of a police rod. Thanks for the photos. The others are also interesting. I have an exact "copy" of the second in the middle but do not know when it was made for ? (hope that was English). It is not the typical rod from 1906/1910. The right one with the brass tip and the small loop could be one of the type which I found in Sweden.

05-10-2011, 05:13 PM	#8
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Klaus, Thanks for your input. According to Gortz and Sturgess Vol 3 pg 1522: "After 1918 numbers of LP08 cleaning rods were shortened to be used for the 100mm barreled P08 in police service." "New handles usually of beechwood and having seven rings were fitted." "New rods were also made to this specification but they lack the protective cap. The screw thread is shorter being only 40mm long and the usable thread start at the tip clearly differentiates these newly made from converted." Their picture examples show spiraling threads. I assume if artillery rods were cut down the threads would be spiralled (original artillery). Here is a picture of the threads on my rod. Jan Still's Weimar Luger and Early Nazi Lugers on page 182 shows two police rods. One appears to spiral; one doesn't? It seems cleaning rods are a separate world with very little research or understanding. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Bill Lyon

05-10-2011, 07:32 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Bill, It seems cleaning rods are a separate world with very little research or understanding. They are like tools..Up to now there has not been much published on them. Thankfully David Lindsay has changed this some for loading tools. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-10-2011, 09:03 PM	#10
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Also in Bender's book Luger Holsters and Accessories on page 301 are 3 Weimar rods. Two have spiralled cleaning shafts and one does not. Obviously they were made both ways. Unless one or the other is fake which I doubt. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

05-11-2011, 01:14 AM	#11
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	"After 1918 numbers of LP08 cleaning rods were shortened to be used for the 100mm barreled P08 in police service." "New handles usually of beechwood and having seven rings were fitted." "New rods were also made to this specification but they lack the protective cap. The screw thread is shorter being only 40mm long and the usable thread start at the tip clearly differentiates these newly made from converted." I think I cannot do more than repeat what I already wrote. And it made no sense to make new wooden handles or new barrels for a Police rod. The Police introduced muzzle protectors for their Lugers and if they would have used altered LP08 rods they would have used the brass protective cap. But it was not so- The Police used only new made rods. Achim Görtz was one of a few Luger experts who helped me when I started collecting Lugers and their accessories but he asked me after a few years about the accessories. He was one of two who went through our archives and worked there over month. But he does not know very much about rods, tools or holsters. I know that he would not be angry with me that I wrote the last sentence here.

05-11-2011, 01:39 PM	#12
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	Bill, I looked at Görtz "Die Pistole 08" and he does not mention that "After 1918 numbers of LP08 cleaning rods were shortened to be used for the 100mm barreled P08 in police service." "New handles usually of beechwood and having seven rings were fitted." "New rods were also made to this specification but they lack the protective cap. The screw thread is shorter being only 40mm long and the usable thread start at the tip clearly differentiates these newly made from converted. I think that Dr. Sturgess made a mistake when he wrote that. There is a 1928 dated order in the "Ministerialblatt für die Preußische innere Verwaltung" (for the Police) that the cleaning rod "holder" on the shorted LP08 holster has to be replaced by the magazine pouch. By the way: This order could be the reason why the Police holsters have another fastener than the Army holsters. (Hope that was English) Only with these holsters were the former LP08 rods used. But they do not have the brass stop because one could not put it into the rod holder. I add a photo of an altered LP08 holster with shorted rod holder. The first rod from left is a shorted LP08 rod. The next to the right are only shown for comparing the length of the different rods. Best regards Klaus Attached Thumbnails

05-11-2011, 06:36 PM	#13
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Klaus Your shortened artillery rod has the 7 spirals on the drum. I assume this was replaced? Thanks for all the input. Seems we still have much to learn. But that's part of the fun. Regards Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

05-12-2011, 02:00 AM	#14
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	I do not think that the drum was replaced. The rod was shorted on the top and I think they used the drum also for the shorted rod. The 7. ring is not so deep than the other six. There are no documents in the German archives about the police rod. That make it not easy. Regards Klaus

05-12-2011, 02:57 AM	#15
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Pages 160, and 181-182 of Weimar Lugers has a brief description of a number of Weimar Era cleaning rods. Jan

05-12-2011, 07:02 AM	#16
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Fascinating stuff...I had never thought much about period cleaning rods...Were they issued & stored in the holster??? (I think I've seen references to a 'cleaning rod pocket' in one of the holster threads)... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...